Practicing Right Speech

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Training of Sila, the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).

Re: Practicing Right Speech

Postby pompous_ass1 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:03 am

"Looks like you're having a nice conversation with yourself. You should try reading other people's responses as I think Bodom had some nice quotes that might shed light on the dilemma."

I see, another self proclaimed expert that wants nothing but agreement with his every post....good luck with that. Maybe you and I should exchange IDs.
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Re: Practicing Right Speech

Postby Khalil Bodhi » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:10 am

pompous_ass1 wrote:"Looks like you're having a nice conversation with yourself. You should try reading other people's responses as I think Bodom had some nice quotes that might shed light on the dilemma."

I see, another self proclaimed expert that wants nothing but agreement with his every post....good luck with that. Maybe you and I should exchange IDs.


You know, I think I deserve your reply. I offer you my apologies for my untimely, poorly spoken sentiments. Take care. Mettaya.
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183

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Re: Practicing Right Speech

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:27 am

pompous_ass1 wrote:Right speech is not always saying what people want to hear. . . . what you know to be true.
How about you actually tie this to the Buddha's teachings. Let us see what he said that supports your pompous position. Give us a quote or three.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Practicing Right Speech

Postby cooran » Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:34 am

Hello err ... pompous ass,

Here are some of the actual teachings of the Buddha on Right Speech - can we discuss those with regard to your understanding of the matter of ''Practicing Right Speech''?

In His Own Words

RIGHT SPEECH FROM HIS OWN LIPS

1. EXPLANATION OF SAMMAVACA Bhikkhus, what is sammavaca like? The intention to refrain from false speech, the intention to refrain from divisive speech, the intention to refrain from crude speech, and the intention to refrain from frivolous speech, Bhikkhus, this is what we call "sammavaca."

2. NOBLE & IGNOBLE WAYS OF SPEAKING
Bhikkhus, there are these eight kinds of anariyavohara (ignoble ways of speaking). What are the eight kinds? The eight kinds are:

the tendency to speak of having seen things that have not (really) been seen;
the tendency to speak of having heard things that have not (really) been heard;
the tendency to speak of having experienced things that have not (really) been experienced;
the tendency to speak of having realized things that have not (really) been realized;

the tendency to speak of having not seen things that have been seen;
the tendency to speak of having not heard things that have been heard;
the tendency to speak of having not experienced things that have been experienced;
the tendency to speak of having not realized things that have been realized.

Bhikkhus, these are the eight anariyavohara.

Bhikkhus, there are these eight kinds of ariyavohara (noble ways of speaking). What are the eight kinds? The eight kinds are:

the tendency to speak of having not seen things that have not been seen;
the tendency to speak of having not heard things that have not been heard;
the tendency to speak of having not experienced things that have not been experienced;
the tendency to speak of having not realized things that have not been realized;

the tendency to speak of having seen things that have (really) been seen;
the tendency to speak of having heard things that have (really) been heard;
the tendency to speak of having experienced things that have (really) been experienced;
the tendency to speak of having realized things that have (truly) been realized.

Bhikkhus, these are the eight ariyavohara.

3. TWO MODES OF SAMMAVACA: LOKIYA & LOKUTTARA
Bhikkhus, what is sammavaca? Bhikkhus, we speak even of sammavaca as being two-fold: there is the sammavaca that goes along with the asava (eruptions), is connected with goodness, and results in upadhi (burdens); and there is the sammavaca that is noble, without asava, beyond the world, and a factor of the path.

Bhikkhus, how is the sammavaca that goes along with the asava, is connected with goodness, and results in upadhi? The intention to abstain from musavada (false speech), the intention to abstain from pisunavada (divisive speech), the intention to abstain from pharusavada (crude speech), the intention to abstain from samphappalapavada (frivolous speech): Bhikkhus, this is the sammavaca that goes along with the asava, is connected with goodness, and results in upadhi.

Bhikkhus, how is the sammavaca that is noble, free of the asava, beyond the world, and a factor of the path? The refraining, the abstaining, the strict abstinence, and the intention to abstain from the four kinds of wrong speech (as listed above) of one whose mind is noble, whose mind is free of the asava, who is cultivating the noble path: Bhikkhus, this is the sammavaca that is noble, free of the asava, beyond the world, and a factor of the path.

4. STANDARD FOR SCRUTINIZING "SPOKEN KARMA"
(a. before acting)
Rahula, when you desire to do any verbal kamma, first reflect upon that kamma: "This verbal action that I desire to do, does it lead to harm for myself, lead to harm for others, or lead to harm for both sides; is it an unwholesome verbal action with dukkha as its return and dukkha as its result?" Rahula, if you reflect and then feel that it is so, then you absolutely should not do such a verbal action.

Rahula, if you reflect and then feel that: "This verbal action that I desire to do, does not lead to harm for myself, does not lead to harm for others, and does not lead to harm for both sides; it is a wholesome verbal action, that has joy as its return and has joy as its result"; then, Rahula, you ought to do such a verbal action.

(b. while acting)
Rahula, while you are doing any verbal action, reflect upon that action: "This verbal action that I am doing, does it harm myself, does it harm others, or does it harm either side; is it an unwholesome verbal action with dukkha as its return and with dukkha as its result?" Rahula, if you consider and then feel it is so, you ought to abandon such a verbal action.

Rahula, if you consider and then feel that: "This verbal action that I am doing, does not harm myself, does not harm others, and does not harm either side; it is a wholesome verbal action with joy as its return and with joy as its result"; then, Rahula, you ought to increase such a verbal action.

(c. after having acted)
Rahula, when you have done any verbal action, reflect upon that kamma: "This verbal action that I have done, did it harm myself, did it harm others, or did it harm either side; was it an unwholesome verbal action with dukkha as its return and dukkha as its result?" Rahula, if you reflect and then feel that it was so, you ought to announce, confess, and make upside-right that verbal action to the Master or to fellow Brahma-farers who are wise. Once it is announced, confessed, and made upside-right, you should be careful and restrained henceforth.

Rahula, if you reflect and then feel that: "This verbal action that I have done, did not harm myself, did not harm others, and did not harm either party; it was a wholesome verbal action with joy as its return and with joy as its result"; then, Rahula, you ought to be contented and delighted, and continue training in wholesome dhammas both during the day and during the night.

5. POINTS OF PRAISE & BLAME CONCERNING SAMMAVACA
Potaliya, four kinds of people exist and can be found in the world.

What four kinds? The four kinds are:

Some people blame those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time, but do not praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time.

Some people praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time, but do not blame those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time.

Some people do not blame those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time, and do not praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time.

Some people blame those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time, and praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time.

Potaliya, these four kinds of people exist and can be found in the world. Of these four kinds of people, that kind should be the most fair and right, the most refined, to you?

"Venerable Lord Gotama, of all those four kinds of people, the kind of person who does not blame those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time, and does not praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time; is the kind of person who is the most beautiful and refined to me. What is the reason for this? Because this is fair and right with upekkha (equanimity)."

Potaliya, of all those four kinds of people, whichever kind of person blames those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time, and praises those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time; this kind of person is the most beautiful and refined of these four kinds of people. What is the reason for this? It is fair and right because such a one knows the right time in those circumstances.

6. ELABORATION OF THE FOUR SAMMAVACA
(Amusavada:) A person gives up false speech, strictly abstains from false speech, speaks only the truth, protects honesty, is secure in his words, is believable, and has no intention to deceive the world.

(Apisunavada:) A person gives up divisive words, strictly abstains from divisive words. Having heard something from this party, one does not take it over to tell that party so that they will break with this party; or having heard from that party, one does not take it to tell this party so that they will break with that party; but will unite people who have broken up and return them to concord, will support people who are in concord so they will be even more harmonious. Is a person who likes harmony, who delights in harmony, who is content with concord, and speaks only words that cause concord.

(Apharusavada:) A person gives up speaking crude words, abstains fully from speaking crude words, and speaks only speech that is blameless, is sweet to the ear, causes love, is inspiring, is the polite speech of city-folk, is satisfying to the many. He speaks only that sort of speech.

(Asamphappalapavada:) A person gives up frivolous speech, strictly abstains from frivolous speech; and speaks only at the proper time; speaks only true words that are beneficial, are Dhamma, and are Vinaya; speaks only words that have a basis, a foundation of reference, and an ending time, that are beneficial and fit the situation.

7. WELL-SPOKEN WORDS ARE SAMMAVACA
Bhikkhus, words having these five characteristics are words well-spoken, are not words badly-spoken, are blameless words that the wise do not criticize. What are these five characteristics? The five are:

spoken at the proper time
spoken in line with the truth
spoken gently
spoken beneficially
spoken with a friendly heart (Kalena bhasita hoti)
(Sacca bhasita hoti)
(Sanha bhasita hoti)
(Atthasanhita bhasita hoti)
(Mettacittena bhasita hoti)

Bhikkhus, speech having these five characteristics are words well-spoken, are not words badly-spoken, are blameless words that the wise do not criticize.

8. WELL-SPOKEN WORDS ARE SAMMAVACA
(another angle)
Bhikkhus, words having these four characteristics are words well-spoken, are not words badly-spoken, and are blameless words that the wise do not criticize. What are these four characteristics? The four are:

speaking only good words, never speaking bad words;
speaking only justly, never speaking unjustly;
speaking only lovely words (for the listener), never speaking ugly words;
speaking only truthful words, never speaking time-wasting words.

Bhikkhus, speech having these four characteristics are words well-spoken, are not words badly-spoken, and are blameless words that the wise do not criticize.

9. SPEECH OF NOBLE & IGNOBLE PERSONS
A. Speech of an Asappurisa (Ignoble Person)
Bhikkhus, a person with four dhammas (traits, qualities) is everywhere known as being an Asappurisa. What are the four? The four are:

Bhikkhus, in this case, the Asappurisa, although nobody asks about another person's vices, he openly makes them known, not to mention when somebody asks; when asked by somebody about another person's vices, he leads into problems that can't be evaded or downplayed, then speaks of another's vices fully and in detail. Bhikkhus, on this point you ought to know that this person is an Asappurisa.

Bhikkhus, there is still another kind of Asappurisa, that is, one who, although asked about another person's virtues, doesn't make them known, not to mention when nobody asks; when asked about another person's virtues, he downplays and confuses the question, then speaks of another person's virtues incompletely and without detail. Bhikkhus, on this point you ought to know that this person is an Asappurisa.

Bhikkhus, there is still another kind of Asappurisa, that is, one who, although asked about his own vices, he covers them up and does not make them known, not to mention when nobody asks; when asked by someone about his own vices, downplays and confuses the question, then speaks about his vices incompletely and without detail. Bhikkhus, on this point you ought to know that this person is an Asappurisa.

Bhikkhus, there is still another kind of Asappurisa, that is, one who, although nobody asks about his virtues, openly boasts about them, not to mention when somebody asks; when somebody asks about his virtues, he does not downplay or evade the question, then speaks about his virtues fully and in detail. Bhikkhus, on this point you ought to know that this person is an Asappurisa.

Bhikkhus, a person with these four dhammas is well known to be an Asappurisa.

B. Speech of a Sappurisa (Noble Person)
Bhikkhus, a person with four dhammas is everywhere known as being a Sappurisa. What are the four? The four are:

Bhikkhus, in this case, the Sappurisa, although somebody asks about another person's vices, does not make them known, not to mention when nobody asks; when asked by somebody about another person's vices, he downplays and evades the question, then speaks of another's vices incompletely and without detail. Bhikkhus, on this point you ought to know that this person is a Sappurisa.

Bhikkhus, there is still another kind of Sappurisa, that is, one who, although not asked about another person's virtues, makes them known, not to mention when somebody asks; when asked about another person's virtues, he doesn't downplay or evade the question, and speaks of another person's virtues completely and in detail. Bhikkhus, on this point you ought to know that this person is a Sappurisa.

Bhikkhus, there is still another kind of Sappurisa, that is, one who, although not asked about his own vices, makes them known, not to mention when somebody asks; when asked by someone about his own vices, he does not downplay or evade the question, but speaks about his vices fully and in detail. Bhikkhus, on this point you ought to know that this person is a Sappurisa.

Bhikkhus, there is still another kind of Sappurisa, that is, one who, although somebody asks about his virtues, does not make them known, not to mention when nobody asks; when somebody asks about his virtues, he evades and downplays the question, and speaks about his virtues incompletely and without detail. Bhikkhus, on this point you ought to know that this person is a Sappurisa.

Bhikkhus, a person with these four dhammas is well known to be a Sappurisa.

C. Speech of New In-laws & Old In-laws
Bhikkhus, just as with a new bride who has just been brought home for the first night and day. The whole of that time there persists shyness and fear of her husband's mother, of her husband's father, of her husband, and even of the servants.

Once time has passed, because of familiarity, that daughter-in-law shouts at her husband's mother, at her husband's father, even at her husband: "Get out, get out, what do any of you people know?"

Bhikkhus, just the same, some bhikkhus in this Training, go forth from home, are homeless throughout the day and night, during that whole time only, their hiri (shame) and ottappa (moral dread) persists towards bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, upasaka, upasika, and even the temple-folk and novices.

Once time has passed, due to familiarity, they shout at their teachers and at their preceptors: "Get out, get out, what do any of you know?"

Bhikkhus, for this reason in this matter, you all ought to train and reflect as follows: "We will live with a mind just like that of a newly arrived daughter-in-law." Bhikkhus, you all ought to train and reflect in this way.

10. STANDARD OF HIGHEST SAMMAVACA
Prince, the Tathagata clearly knows certain words to be untrue, to be false, to have no benefit, and to be not pleasing and supportive to others; the Tathagata naturally doesn't speak those words.

The Tathagata clearly knows certain words to be true, to be fact, but to have no benefit, and to be not pleasing and supportive to others; the Tathagata naturally doesn't speak those words.

The Tathagata clearly knows certain words to be true, to be fact, to have benefit, but to be not pleasing and supportive to others; the Tathagata naturally chooses the proper time for speaking those words.

The Tathagata clearly knows certain words to be untrue, to be false, to have no benefit, and yet to be pleasing and supportive to others; the Tathagata naturally doesn't speak those words.

The Tathagata clearly knows certain words to be true, to be fact, but to have no benefit, and yet to be pleasing and supportive to others; the Tathagata naturally doesn't speak those words.

The Tathagata clearly knows certain words to be true, to be fact, to have benefit, and to be pleasing and supportive to others; the Tathagata naturally knows the appropriate time for speaking those words.

11. HIGHEST LEVEL OF SAMMAVACA (Buddha-level)
Dandapanisakka asked the Buddha, "How does the Venerable Samana usually speak, what do you normally say?"

Friend, whatever having been spoken by people, does not lead to quarrels and arguments with anyone in the world, including the Deva, Mara, and Brahma worlds, among beings including Sages and Priests, heavenlies and humans; furthermore, whatever having been spoken by people, does not bring sanya (old stories) into the mind of a speaker who (now) is finished with evil, is not involved with sensuality, need never again speak with uncertainty about how things are, has severed all annoyance of body and mind, and is free of desire for any kind of existence; friend, my words are like this, I normally speak like this.

12. EXAMPLES OF FRIVOLOUS SPEECH IN TEACHERS
(first example)
"Venerable Gotama, regarding what is the path and what is not the path, even the various Brahmins will explain things in different ways: the Addhariya-Brahmins, the Tittiriya-Brahmins, the Chandoka-Brahmins, and the Bavharidha-Brahmins explain (each their own way). Yet all of those paths are paths leading out, able to lead those who walk them to union with Brahma. Just as if the many paths near a village or city all meet at that one village, so the various paths of the Brahmins."

Vasettha, among all those Three Vedas Brahmins is there even one Brahmin who has seen Brahma face to face?

"That cannot be found, Venerable Gotama."

Vasettha, if that is so, is there even one teacher of those Three Vedas Brahmins who has seen Brahma face to face?

"That cannot be found, Venerable Gotama."

Vasettha, if that is so, is there even one head teacher of the teachers of those Three Vedas Brahmins who has seen Brahma face to face?

"That cannot be found, Venerable Gotama."

Vasettha, if that is so, is there even one teacher in the last seven generations of those Three Vedas Brahmins who has seen Brahma face to face?

"That cannot be found, Venerable Gotama."

Vasettha, among all of the old rishis -- namely, Rishi Atthaka, Rishi Vamaka, Rishi Vamadeva, Rishi Vessamitta, Rishi Yamataggi, Rishi Angirasa, Rishi Bharadvaja, Rishi Vasettha, Rishi Kassapa, Rishi Bhagu -- those composers of sacred mantras who told them to the Three Vedas Brahmins to repeat, pronounce, chant, and tell again, which continues until this day; is there even one rishi among all those rishis who declares, "I know, I see, where Brahma is, how he exists, and when he appears"?

"That cannot be found, Venerable Gotama."

Vasettha, when there are no Brahmins, teachers of Brahmins, or Rishis who told the mantras to the Brahmins -- not even one -- who ever saw Brahma face to face, then showed the path leading to union with Brahma; how will you regard this? The words of those Three Vedas Brahmins turn out to be unmiraculous, don't they?

"Obviously, Venerable Gotama, when that is the case, the words of those Three Vedas Brahmins naturally turn out unmiraculous."

Correct, Vasettha. That these Brahmins who do not know and do not see Brahma will thus show the path leading to union with Brahma is not at all possible. Vasettha, just as with a line of blind men clinging to each others backs, the man at the front sees nothing, the men in the middle see nothing, and the man at the end sees nothing, so the words of the Three Vedas Brahmins can be compared to a line of blind men. That is, the first group of speakers didn't see Brahma, the next group of speakers didn't see Brahma, and the last group of speakers didn't see Brahma. Thus, their words turn out to be ridiculous, low, vain, and good-for-nothing.

(second example)
Vasettha, how will you regard this? All those Three Vedas Brahmins can see the Moon and Sun, as most other people can see the Moon and Sun, regarding the directions from where they are arising and where they are setting, then pray, sing praises, and with raised hands circumambulate, both groups together, don't they?

"So it is, Venerable Gotama."

Vasettha, how will you regard this? When the Three Vedas Brahmins see, the same as most other people see, the Moon and Sun like this, then the Three Vedas Brahmins are able to show the path to union with the Moon and Sun, right?

"This cannot be found, Venerable Gotama."

Vasettha, when those Three Vedas Brahmins, the same as most other people, can see the Moon and Sun clearly by themselves, yet are unable to show the way to union with the Moon and Sun; then those Brahmins, those teachers of Brahmins, and those Rishis who told the mantras to the Brahmins, none of whom have ever seen Brahma face to face, will come to show the way to union with Brahma; how will you regard this? The words of those Three Vedas Brahmins naturally turn out unmiraculous, don't they?

"Obviously, Venerable Gotama, when that is the case, the words of those Three Vedas Brahmins turn out unmiraculous."

Correct, Vasettha. That all the Brahmins who have never known or seen Brahma will come to show the way to union with Brahma like that, this is not at all possible.

(third example)
Vasettha, it is as if a man says, "I hope to get the most beautiful girl in this country." All the people ask him, "Sir, do you know whether this most beautiful girl whom you desire is from the noble or Brahmin castes, from the artisan or laborer castes?" He answers, "I don't know." Those people ask again, "This most beautiful girl whom you hope to get, what is her name and her clan; is she tall, short, or medium-height; is she black-skinned, brown-skinned, or golden-skinned; what village, district, or city does she live in?" He answers, "I don't know at all." Those people ask again, "Sir, you hope for and desire to get someone who you have never known or seen, don't you?" He answers, "That's right." Vasettha, how will you regard this? The words of this man naturally turn out unmiraculous, don't they?

"Obviously, Venerable Gotama."

(fourth example)
Vasettha, it's as if a man made a stairway for climbing up to a palace and put it at the junction of four large roads. All the people ask him, "Sir, you made a stairway for climbing up to a palace. Do you know of that castle, whether it is to the East or the South, to the West or the North, tall or
short or medium sized? That man answers, "I don't know at all." Those people ask again, "Sir, you made a stairway for climbing up to a palace that you never have known and never have seen, didn't you?" He answers, "That's right." Vasettha, how will you regard this? The words of this man naturally turn out unmiraculous, don't they?

"Obviously, Venerable Gotama."

(fifth example)
Vasettha, it's as if this Aciravati River is so full of water that a crow can drink from it standing up. Then, a man arrives who has some purpose on the far bank, is looking for the other side, is trying to get to the far bank, and wants to get across; he stands on this bank and calls to the far bank, "Far bank come here; come here far bank." Vasettha, how will you regard this? This far bank of the Aciravati River will come to this bank because of this man's calling, begging, wishing, or wheedling, can that be?

"Most Venerable Gotama, that is hardly possible."

13. RESULTS OF WRONG SPEECH
Bhikkhus, musavada (false speech) that is thoroughly consumed, developed, and made much of, naturally leads to hell, to animal birth, and to the preta (hungry ghost) realms. The result of false speech of those who are humans that is lighter than the (above) results is the one that leads to false claims of ownership (regarding ones possessions).

Bhikkhus, pisunavada (divisive speech) thoroughly consumed, developed, and made much of, naturally leads to hell, to animal birth, and to the preta realms. The result of the divisive speech of those who are humans that is lighter than the (above) results is the one that leads to breaking with
friends.

Bhikkhus, pharusavada (coarse speech) thoroughly consumed, developed, and made much of, naturally leads to hell, to animal birth, and to the preta realms. The result of the coarse speech of those who are humans that is lighter than the (above) results is the one that leads to hearing unpleasant sounds.

Bhikkhus, samphappalapavada (frivolous speech) that is thoroughly consumed, developed, and made much of, naturally leads to hell, to animal birth, and to the preta realms. The result of the frivolous speech of those who are humans that is lighter than the (above) results is the one that leads to speech that nobody believes.

SUTTA REFERENCES
(according to volume & page number of the Pali Text Society's Pali editions,
as far as we could find them in our library)
1. Digha-Nikaya, Mahasatipatthana Sutta (#22); D.ii.312.
2. Anguttara-Nikaya, Eights.
3. Majjhima-Nikaya, Mahacattarisaka Sutta (#117); M.iii.73-74.
4. Majjhima-Nikaya, Ambalatthika-rahulovada Sutta (#61); M.i.417-419
5. Anguttara-Nikaya, Fours.
6. Digha-Nikaya, Samannaphala Sutta (#2); D.i. 64.
7. Anguttara-Nikaya, Fives.
8. Suttanipata, Subhasita Sutta (iii, #3).
9. Anguttara-Nikaya, Fours.
10. Majjhima-Nikaya, Abhayarajakumara Sutta (#58); M.i.395.
11. Majjhima-Nikaya, Madhupindika Sutta (#18); M.i.108.
12. Digha-Nikaya, Tevijja Sutta (#13), D.i.237-244.
13. Anguttara-Nikaya, Eights.
http://www.suanmokkh.org/archive/rtspch1.htm

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Practicing Right Speech

Postby Ytrog » Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:37 pm

Thanks for putting this all together Chris :anjali:
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.


mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments


If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.
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Re: Practicing Right Speech

Postby andre9999 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:11 am

That post should be sticky here. I'd certainly like to reference it for my own growth.
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Re: Practicing Right Speech

Postby octathlon » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:36 am

andre9999 wrote:That post should be sticky here. I'd certainly like to reference it for my own growth.

+1
Maybe without the introductory greeting line though... :D
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Re: Practicing Right Speech

Postby Euclid » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:11 am

pompous_ass1 wrote: Buddha never meant for us to be silent in the face of foolishness...or that we should take so much to heart that you cannot control about the reactions of others.


Why don't you let Buddha speak for himself rather than project your own opinions as though they are what he 'meant for us', even when there's canonical evidence to the contrary.
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Re: Practicing Right Speech

Postby Kim OHara » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:06 am

octathlon wrote:
andre9999 wrote:That post should be sticky here. I'd certainly like to reference it for my own growth.

+1
Maybe without the introductory greeting line though... :D

+2
:bow:
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Re: Practicing Right Speech

Postby Hanzze » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:10 am

Dear cooran,

I am speechless! :thumbsup:

or with other words: excellent! excellent! excellent!

anomodana!
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Practicing Right Speech

Postby fragrant herbs » Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:41 am

I certainly understand how Pompous feels, and I don't think that he should have been put down for these beliefs, because that too is wrong speech. What he said is the way I was taught too, but it never changed anyone's views; instead it made people angry, and when you ran into them in public, they snarled at you. So Pompous, telling people the truth never changes them, and that is the point; instead it hurts their feelings.

But it certainly is hard not saying anything and then just walking away, because then you are often left with a friend who wants to know what is wrong, and if you tell them what is wrong, you are right back with my first paragraph.

I am dealing with a person right now. I tried pushing her away, but she ignores what I say and keeps pushing her way into my life. Walking away isn't easy with her; I have tried it in the past, but I am more determined now. And so no matter what I do I am left with guilt. Why? Because she wants my friendship but doesn't respect my feelings.

pompous_ass1 wrote:
Truth is not always agreeable to others...I find that dogmatic to say that what ever you say, even if it is absolutely truthful and demostrably so, it must be "agreeable" to the hearer. That is impossible, even if you have a good rapport with the person that they will always be "agreeable" to hearing the truth. People cling very strongly to their delusions and biases. Does this mean that you should never address them? I don't think so. Buddha never meant for us to be silent in the face of foolishness...or that we should take so much to heart that you cannot control about the reactions of others.


If a person is really your friend, yes, they would want to know what is wrong and fix it, but then I can't recall having a friend in my life that I had a problem with, that is, one that is a true friend, and so I never had to fix things with these friends. But I have had short term friendships where I spoke out due to hurt feelings, and I did it kindly, and then was met with anger and either I dumped them or they me.

I just don't think that our opinion weighs much with others. We can't change people's opinions or views. If you have ever been on the boards where you have Christians debating atheists or republicans debating democrats, you will find that all you have is people arguing and no one changes their minds. In fact these people are just addicted to arguing.

But I don't know now what to say to a person if they ask me what is wrong? Lie? No. Truth? No. I think this topic should be explored further.
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