Pārājika

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.

Pārājika

Postby Future Bhikkhu » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:34 am

I was wondering if a person after committing Pārājika would be able to re-ordain. I know that it states in the vinaya that they may not, but this seems harsh. Would it ever be possible to rejoin after committing such an offence?
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Re: Pārājika

Postby Goofaholix » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:39 am

Future Bhikkhu wrote:I know that it states in the vinaya that they may not.


I think you know the answer.

If you feel it's too harsh maybe going Mahayana could be an option.
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Re: Pārājika

Postby Future Bhikkhu » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:46 am

I don't think I should worry about it because I'm not going to commit it. I will stay with Theradava. I guess the rules need to be tough or else the tradition wouldn't last.

Thankyou anyway.

:anjali:
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Re: Pārājika

Postby Phra Chuntawongso » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:32 am

Future Bhikkhu wrote:I don't think I should worry about it because I'm not going to commit it. I will stay with Theradava. I guess the rules need to be tough or else the tradition wouldn't last.

Thankyou anyway.

:anjali:

Hi FB.I read your intro early this morning but was heading off on alms rounds so had no time to reply.Welcome to Dhamma Wheel.
As monks we have a special responsibility towards the laity.We depend upon our devotees to take care of all our needs.Food,clothing,shelter and medicine.In return they look to us for guidance and look up to us.
Any monk who commits a parajika offence lets down everyone.It brings the Sangha into disrepute and can cause people to turn away from the teachings of Lord Buddha.For this reason expulsion is necessary and the monk is not allowed to re-ordain in this life time.
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Re: Pārājika

Postby Future Bhikkhu » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:36 am

That is true. Another thing I read was that if the monk falls into defeat but admits his weakness then it is not treated the same. Does admitting weakness lighten the punishment?

Also, if a monk kills an animal, what seriousness of offence does it come under?
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Re: Pārājika

Postby Bankei » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:37 pm

I recall seeing a Thai TV show where they investigated this monk who was doing naughty things like tattooing a lady on the breast alone in his kuti (caught on video) and other things. He was disrobed by the abbot and sent on his way. The show then tracked him down in another town where he simply reordained. They tried to have the abbot disrobe him again, but the abbot refused.......

So I imagine it would be possible to re-ordain in a different area where no one knows you, but this sort of thing is becoming increasingly difficult because of modern technology such as news reports and internet etc.

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Re: Pārājika

Postby Sylvester » Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:55 am

Future Bhikkhu wrote:That is true. Another thing I read was that if the monk falls into defeat but admits his weakness then it is not treated the same. Does admitting weakness lighten the punishment?

Also, if a monk kills an animal, what seriousness of offence does it come under?



This rehabilitative process is not to be found in the Theravada Vinaya.

It's called the siksadatthaka and it's only to be found in the other Vinayas. It is probably a later addition to the early Vinaya. The Pali Suttavibangha accounnt of the 1st Parajika seems to have been aware of this development, and explicitly denies the possibility of re-ordination after "Defeat".

I don't remember all the details of the other Vinayas, but I get the impression that the defeated monk is also not allowed to re-take upasampada but remains a novice for life.
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Re: Pārājika

Postby pilgrim » Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:19 am

Bankei wrote:I recall seeing a Thai TV show where they investigated this monk who was doing naughty things like tattooing a lady on the breast alone in his kuti (caught on video) and other things. He was disrobed by the abbot and sent on his way. The show then tracked him down in another town where he simply reordained. They tried to have the abbot disrobe him again, but the abbot refused.......

So I imagine it would be possible to re-ordain in a different area where no one knows you, but this sort of thing is becoming increasingly difficult because of modern technology such as news reports and internet etc.

Bankei

This story doesn't seem to be in compliance with Theravada orthodoxy. Being with a lady alone, and even sexual contact without intercourse, is not a parajika although the monk obviously breaks other rules of the Vinaya. In such a situation the monk cannot be disrobed involuntarily. Only he can disrobe himself by reciting the formula for voluntary disrobing. If he actually did so, there is nothing to prevent him from becoming a monk again. So it would apear to me that the 2nd abbot in the story is not wrong as no parajka was commited in the first place. That's my understanding.
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Re: Pārājika

Postby Bankei » Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:56 am

Pilgrim.

That is correct, though I am not sure if it was implied that the monk did have sex with women as well.

However, in Thailand the Sangha leadership often disrobes monks for all sorts of 'offences'. The famous monk, and now nationalist, Phra Bodhirak, was disrobed, stripped of his robes, his offence was being politically troublesome (and claiming he was the reincarnation of Sariputta).

There are also frequent stories in the Thai newspapers about drunken monks, monks singing karaoke with women etc and being forcedly disrobed too. I think the authority to do this is in the Sangha Act.

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Re: Pārājika

Postby pilgrim » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:28 am

Bankei wrote:Pilgrim.

That is correct, though I am not sure if it was implied that the monk did have sex with women as well.

However, in Thailand the Sangha leadership often disrobes monks for all sorts of 'offences'. The famous monk, and now nationalist, Phra Bodhirak, was disrobed, stripped of his robes, his offence was being politically troublesome (and claiming he was the reincarnation of Sariputta).

There are also frequent stories in the Thai newspapers about drunken monks, monks singing karaoke with women etc and being forcedly disrobed too. I think the authority to do this is in the Sangha Act.

Bankei

Yes you are right as the Thai law empowers the Sangha to disrobe monks although such acts are not provided for in the Vinaya. I think a similar situation exists in Cambodia and Myanmar.
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Re: Pārājika

Postby Dharmaguy » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:11 pm

What about in the case of a Sramanera? If a novice commits a parajika what happens then? Is there a chance to purify and try again since a novice is essentially 'training' and likely to fall of the bike so to speak? Thank you.
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Re: Pārājika

Postby fabianfred » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:26 pm

There is no Parajika offense for a novice.
They are under the ten precepts and 75 Sekkiya rules of training.
Therefore there shouldn't be anything to prevent a Novice who has been disrobed from ordaining again.

A monk who commits a Parajika and is not found out or disrobed is no longer a monk from the moment the act occurred, so therefore he is just wearing robes and pretending to be a monk, a false monk actually, so he is cheating the lay followers and creating huge bad karma for himself.
If a lay person does bad that is one thing, but a monk doing the same it is twice as bad....if you cannot stand the heat...get out of the kitchen, if you cannot keep the rules then better to disrobe.
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