Vinaya rules

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Future Bhikkhu
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Vinaya rules

Postby Future Bhikkhu » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:06 am

I was wondering if all the rules for a Bhikkhu were created in the time of the Buddha or were some created alter on?
The mind is everything; what you think you become.
-The Buddha

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retrofuturist
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Re: Vinaya rules

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:57 am

Greetings,

Future Bhikkhu wrote:I was wondering if all the rules for a Bhikkhu were created in the time of the Buddha or were some created alter on?

Given the different number of rules that exist in different Buddhist ordination lineages, I suspect the latter is more likely. Bear in mind though that the Sangha never asked which 'minor rules' could be abandoned, so there are some that even prevailed at the time of the Buddha, which he would not necessarily decree for use in the 21st century.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Through corruption of the Dhamma comes corruption of the discipline, and from corruption of the discipline comes corruption of the Dhamma. This is the first future danger as yet unarisen that will arise in the future. You should recognize it and make an effort to prevent it. (AN 5.79)

"If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good." - Thomas J. Watson

Never again...

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Goofaholix
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Re: Vinaya rules

Postby Goofaholix » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:32 am

Future Bhikkhu wrote:I was wondering if all the rules for a Bhikkhu were created in the time of the Buddha or were some created alter on?


Most (maybe all) of the rules in the Theravadin Vinaya contain an explanation on how the rule came to be, usually a monk did something unbecoming of a monk and he Buddha made a rule there and then. So it appears the Theravadin Vinaya is something that was established while the Buddha was alive.

See http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... guide.html for a guide.
"Right effort is effort with wisdom. Because where there is wisdom, there is interest. The desire to know something is wisdom at work. Being mindful is not difficult. But it’s difficult to be continuously aware. For that you need right effort. But it does not require a great deal of energy. It’s relaxed perseverance in reminding yourself to be aware. When you are aware, wisdom unfolds naturally, and there is still more interest." - Sayadaw U Tejaniya

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Re: Vinaya rules

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:14 am

Greetings Goofaholix,

Goofaholix wrote:Most (maybe all) of the rules in the Theravadin Vinaya contain an explanation on how the rule came to be, usually a monk did something unbecoming of a monk and he Buddha made a rule there and then. So it appears the Theravadin Vinaya is something that was established while the Buddha was alive.

Bear in mind that the explanations themselves may have been "created later on" and retrofitted... much like the explanations behind how the Dhammapada verses came to be.

I'm not claiming that it is so... just providing a heads-up on something to be mindful of.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Through corruption of the Dhamma comes corruption of the discipline, and from corruption of the discipline comes corruption of the Dhamma. This is the first future danger as yet unarisen that will arise in the future. You should recognize it and make an effort to prevent it. (AN 5.79)

"If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good." - Thomas J. Watson

Never again...

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Re: Vinaya rules

Postby Goofaholix » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:17 am

retrofuturist wrote:Bear in mind that the explanations themselves may have been "created later on" and retrofitted... much like the explanations behind how the Dhammapada verses came to be.

I'm not claiming that it is so... just providing a heads-up on something to be mindful of.


So the age/authenticity of the vinaya is not like the nikayas? more like the commentaries? Thanks for the clarification.
"Right effort is effort with wisdom. Because where there is wisdom, there is interest. The desire to know something is wisdom at work. Being mindful is not difficult. But it’s difficult to be continuously aware. For that you need right effort. But it does not require a great deal of energy. It’s relaxed perseverance in reminding yourself to be aware. When you are aware, wisdom unfolds naturally, and there is still more interest." - Sayadaw U Tejaniya

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Re: Vinaya rules

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:22 am

Greetings Goof,

Goofaholix wrote:So the age/authenticity of the vinaya is not like the nikayas? more like the commentaries? Thanks for the clarification.

What I mean is that the Vinaya has commentary, much like the Sutta has commentary. The explanatory stories behind the Dhammapada verses are commentary, so the explanatory stories behind the Vinaya rules may or may not be commentary... I don't know. Maybe someone more au fait with the Vinaya could confirm either way.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Through corruption of the Dhamma comes corruption of the discipline, and from corruption of the discipline comes corruption of the Dhamma. This is the first future danger as yet unarisen that will arise in the future. You should recognize it and make an effort to prevent it. (AN 5.79)

"If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good." - Thomas J. Watson

Never again...

Euclid
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Re: Vinaya rules

Postby Euclid » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:56 am

Because this thread seems as good a place as any to ask: is there anything in the vinaya specifically preventing the Sangha from adding new rules to the patimokkha?


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