Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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Alexei
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Alexei »

Alexei wrote:Rod Bucknell describe his experience:
Ven. Pa-Auk Sayadaw calls a similar state as "falling into bhavanga":
You should determine to keep your mind calmly concentrated on the white uggaha-nimitta for one, two, three hours, or more. If you can keep your mind fixed on the uggaha-nimitta for one or two hours, it should become clear, bright, and brilliant. This is then the pañibhàga-nimitta (counterpart sign).
[...]
Both types of concentration have the pañibhàga-nimitta as their object. The only difference between them is that in access concentration the jhàna factors are not fully developed. For this reason bhavanga mind states still occur, and one can fall into bhavanga (life-continuum consciousness). The meditator will say that everything stopped, and may even think it is Nibbàna. In reality the mind has not stopped, but the meditator is just not sufficiently skilled to discern this, because the bhavanga mind states are very subtle.
[...]
The meditator will say that everything stopped, or may think it is Nibbàna, and say: ‘I knew nothing then.’ If he practises in this way, he can eventually stay in bhavanga for a long time. In any kind of practice, be it good or bad, one will achieve one’s aim, if one tries again and again. ‘Practice makes perfect.’ In this case too, if he tries again and again, in the same way, he may fall into bhavanga for a long time.
[...]
If a meditator thinks it is Nibbàna, this idea is a very big ‘rock’ blocking the way to Nibbàna. If he does not remove this big ‘rock’, he cannot attain Nibbàna. Why does this idea occur? Many meditators think that a disciple (sàvaka) cannot know mentality-materiality as taught by the Buddha. So they do not think it is necessary to develop sufficiently deep concentration in order to discern mentality-materiality, and their causes, as taught by the Buddha. Thus their concentration is only weak, and bhavanga mind states still occur, because the jhàna factors too are weak. The concentration cannot be maintained for a long time. If one purposely practises to fall into bhavanga, one will achieve one’s aim, but it is not Nibbàna.

By the way, nimitta as a concentration object is not necessarily an image (according to the early texts).
rowyourboat
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi Alexei,

Thank you for that quote. Yes, the blackness does not denote anything in particular.. It is possible to be mislead by it. It can arise during samatha or vipassana. This is why it is important to do vipassana under a teacher who can guide you and knows the vipassana nanas well enough to know where you are on the path.

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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Nyana »

Alexei wrote:
parth wrote:This is Jhana alright but what about Vipassana ?
It's certainly not a jhana. There aren't even jhana factors.

So, it seems that some traditions differ with their opinion on the goal of practise.
Just to add: Such blackout states are neither form sphere jhāna, nor vipassanā, nor supramundane jhāna accompanied by gnosis (ñāṇa) which arises when one enters the noble path. This supramundane gnosis is the understanding that all phenomena are signless, desireless, and empty. It arises from contemplating the signlessness of all phenomena. The Paṭisambhidāmagga states:
  • Gnosis of contemplation of the signlessness of form... feeling... recognition... fabrications... consciousness... etc., is signless deliverance because it liberates from all signs.
Thus, this gnosis is the result of the correct contemplation of the signlessness (animittānupassanā) of all phenomena, and not the result of falling into any sort of blackout. The Dhammasaṅgaṇī clearly states that supramundane jhāna is accompanied by the jhāna factors. And the arising of supramundane jhāna is necessary for entering the noble paths and fruitions. A blackout state isn't. The non-arising (anuppāda) and non-continuance (appavatta), etc., which happens at the time of change of lineage (gotrabhu), i.e. when one enters the noble paths, is the non-arising and non-continuance of the fetters and mental outflows specifically abandoned on each noble path, and not the non-arising and non-continuance of the the supramundane jhāna factors themselves. If there are no supramundane jhāna factors and no concomitant gnosis, there is no noble path and no possibility of liberation from fetters and mental outflows.

Also, it's worth mentioning that there is no canonical support for the notion that the noble path consists of two or three mind moments. For a good survey of the relevant passages from the Pāli Tipiṭaka, see Path, Fruit, and Nibbāna (PDF) by Ven. Kheminda.

All the best,

Geoff
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kirk5a
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

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I'm remaining open minded to all input, but the idea that stream-entry, at least, requires a meditative cessation of all experience - I just don't see how that fits in with accounts of stream-enterers in the suttas. Some of whom are just listening to the Buddha speak, and clearly have no meditative skills, in an advanced concentration sense, at all. Take Anathapindika the householder. He attained stream entry after hearing the Buddha for the first time. Then many years later, near the very end of Anathapindika's life, Sariputta gives him instructions that are more in the realm of meditation practice per se, and Anathapindika remarks that he has never heard such instruction before. So... I just don't see how it can be said, in cases like that, there must have been meditative cessation of all experience.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For the higher levels past stream-entry... maybe a stronger case could be made.

EDIT: Further detail on what the Buddha said to Anathapindika at their first meeting.
http://www.sravastiabbey.org/about/sravastistory.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Then the Blessed One, leading Anathapindika step by step, spoke to him of giving, of virtue, of the heavens, of the perils, vanity, and defiling nature of sensual pleasures, of the benefits of renunciation. When he saw that Anathapindika was ready in heart and mind—pliable, unobstructed, uplifted and serene—he explained to him the teaching that is unique to the Enlightened Ones: the Four Noble Truths of suffering, its cause, its cessation, and the path.

With that, the dust-free, stainless eye of truth (Dharmacakkhu) opened for Anathapindika: “Whatever has the nature of arising, all that has the nature of cessation.” Anathapindika had understood the truth of the Dharma, had overcome all doubts, and was without any wavering; certain in his mind, he was now self-dependent in the Master's Dispensation. He had realized the path and fruit of stream-entry (sotapatti).
Last edited by kirk5a on Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Nyana »

kirk5a wrote:I'm remaining open minded to all input, but the idea that stream-entry, at least, requires a meditative cessation of all experience - I just don't see how that fits in with accounts of stream-enterers in the suttas.
Well, it doesn't fit with the Paṭisambhidāmagga or the Dhammasaṅgaṇī either. And both of these texts have developed the path structure beyond what is given in the suttas.

All the best,

Geoff
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kirk5a
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by kirk5a »

Question - I have seen it reported a couple places (can't put my finger on where right now sorry) that Ajahn Chah said that if someone in his monastery hadn't entered the stream in 6 months or a year he didn't know what they had been up to the whole time. Does anyone know if Ajahn Chah expressed any further detail on how he regarded stream entry?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Parth
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Parth »

Kirk5a wrote:
I'm remaining open minded to all input, but the idea that stream-entry, at least, requires a meditative cessation of all experience - I just don't see how that fits in with accounts of stream-enterers in the suttas. Some of whom are just listening to the Buddha speak, and clearly have no meditative skills, in an advanced concentration sense, at all. Take Anathapindika the householder. He attained stream entry after hearing the Buddha for the first time. Then many years later, near the very end of Anathapindika's life, Sariputta gives him instructions that are more in the realm of meditation practice per se, and Anathapindika remarks that he has never heard such instruction before. So... I just don't see how it can be said, in cases like that, there must have been meditative cessation of all experience.
My understanding is that due to high paramis some like anathapindaka could experience the four noble truths incl. the cessation on mere hearing of dhamma in a concise manner. similar to Anathapindaka Sariputta became sotapanna on hearing about dhamma in a very concise form from Moggalayana (who himself was only a sotapanna).

Hope this helps.

Regards

Parth :namaste:
rowyourboat
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by rowyourboat »

I think places where ceasing 'nirodha' is mentioned, often found in the 'nibbida' (repulsion), 'viraga' (dispassion) and nirodha combination, refers to just this phenomena of the flame in the process of ceasing or going out. The Buddha comments on what is happening to the observable phenomena as strictly speaking, calling nibbana anything in particular ( including nibbana itself, not to mention pitch black/empty/void etc) is all misleading as to it's true nature. It is best to say what happens to the last bits of the development of the noble eightfold path as it starts ceasing, due to the incredible level of insight into the futility of phenomena at this state (ie- that is why it is ceasing). The third noble truth (nirodha sacca- literally the 'truth of ceasing') can only be experientially understood at this level. There is a sutta in the AN where the forward arising of the paticcasamuppada is called the second noble truth (samudaya sacca- the truth of arising?) and it's 'ceasing' formulation, beginning with 'the ceasing of ignorance leads to the ceasing of fabrications etc..' is called the third noble truth.

If we tie in the commentarial literature along with works of scholarly meditation masters like Ven Matara Nanarama, Ven Mahasi sayadaw a picture emerges that all of these sources are talking of the same thing- pointing in the same direction. So while we delight in arising (insight, wisdom, light etc) to be told that the culmination is actually a cessation is more than a little let down. ...we need to understand the depth of our ignorance in this matter, let go of our previous scholarly accomplishments and accept that we maybe looking at another deepening of the sea-shore of this vast thing called the dhamma. :smile:

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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Nyana »

rowyourboat wrote:If we tie in the commentarial literature along with works of scholarly meditation masters like Ven Matara Nanarama, Ven Mahasi sayadaw a picture emerges that all of these sources are talking of the same thing- pointing in the same direction.
Sorry, but the Buddhadhamma and the Pāli Canon are the standard of authority. And it is quite clear that these post-canonical commentarial developments are not supported by the Pāli Canon.
rowyourboat wrote:So while we delight in arising (insight, wisdom, light etc) to be told that the culmination is actually a cessation is more than a little let down. ...we need to understand the depth of our ignorance in this matter, let go of our previous scholarly accomplishments and accept that we maybe looking at another deepening of the sea-shore of this vast thing called the dhamma.
This statement is both condescending and inaccurate. What should be let go of is attachment to teachers who contradict what is taught in the Canon.

All the best,

Geoff
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kirk5a
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by kirk5a »

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"At Savatthi. "Monks, the eye is inconstant, changeable, alterable. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The mind is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower...

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower...

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer...

So. I am approaching the matter of meditation with the understanding that the inconstant, changeable, alterable nature of the eye (seeing), ear (hearing), nose (smells), tongue (tastes), body (sensations), and mind (thoughts), is observable directly here and now within the basic context of normal sense experience. If that is so, then what need is there for it all to totally stop?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by rowyourboat »

On one occasion many elder monks were staying near Varanasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana. Then in the late afternoon Ven. Channa left his seclusion and, taking his key, went from dwelling to dwelling, saying to the elder monks, "May the venerable elders exhort me, may the venerable elders teach me, may the venerable elders give me a Dhamma talk so that I might see the Dhamma."

When this was said, the elder monks said to Ven. Channa, "Form, friend Channa, is inconstant. Feeling is inconstant. Perception is inconstant. Fabrications are inconstant. Consciousness is inconstant. Form is not-self. Feeling is not-self. Perception is not-self. Fabrications are not-self. Consciousness is not-self. All fabrications are inconstant. All phenomena are not-self."

Then the thought occurred to Ven. Channa, "I, too, think that form is inconstant, feeling is inconstant, perception is inconstant, fabrications are inconstant, consciousness is inconstant; form is not-self, feeling is not-self, perception is not-self, fabrications are not-self, consciousness is not-self; all fabrications are inconstant; all phenomena are not-self. But still my mind does not leap up, grow confident, steadfast, & released[1] in the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, dispassion, cessation, Unbinding. Instead, agitation & clinging arise, and my intellect pulls back, thinking, 'But who, then, is my self?' But this thought doesn't occur to one who sees the Dhamma. So who might teach me the Dhamma so that I might see the Dhamma?"

Then the thought occurred to Ven. Channa, "This Ven. Ananda is staying at Kosambi in Ghosita's Park. He has been praised by the Teacher and is esteemed by his knowledgeable fellows in the holy life. He is capable of teaching me the Dhamma so that I might see the Dhamma, and I have sudden trust in him. Why don't I go to Ven. Ananda?"

So, setting his lodgings in order and carrying his robes & bowl, Ven. Channa went to Kosambi to where Ven. Ananda was staying in Ghosita's Park. On arrival, he exchanged courteous greetings with the Ven. Ananda. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he [told Ven. Ananda what had happened and added], "May Ven. Ananda exhort me, may Ven. Ananda teach me, may Ven. Ananda give me a Dhamma talk so that I might see the Dhamma."

"Even this much makes me feel gratified & satisfied with Ven. Channa, that he opens up & breaks down his stubbornness. So lend ear, friend Channa. You are capable of understanding the Dhamma."

Then a sudden great rapture & joy welled up in Ven. Channa at the thought, "So I am capable of understanding the Dhamma!"

"Face-to-face with the Blessed One have I heard this, friend Channa. Face-to-face with him have I learned the exhortation he gave to the bhikkhu Kaccayanagotta:[2] 'By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by[3] a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, "non-existence" with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, "existence" with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"'By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on "my self." He has no uncertainty or doubt that, when there is arising, only stress is arising; and that when there is passing away, stress is passing away. In this, one's knowledge is independent of others. It is to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'"Everything exists": That is one extreme. "Everything doesn't exist": That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"'Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.'

"That's how it is, friend Ananda, for those who have friends in the holy life like Ven. Ananda — sympathetic, helpful, exhorting, & teaching. Just now, for me, listening to Ven. Ananda's Dhamma-teaching, has the Dhamma been penetrated."

Notes:

For me this sutta clearly suggests that Ven Channa knew that after seeing impermanence of the five aggregates (ie everything) that 'the resolution of all fabrications (sabbe sankara samathaya), which is another name for nibbana, should manifest. Equally Ven Ananda asks him to put his stubbornness aside and be open to the dhamma. If he hadn't done that Ven Channa would not have become a stream entrant.
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Parth »

kirk5a wrote:
"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower...

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower...

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer...

So. I am approaching the matter of meditation with the understanding that the inconstant, changeable, alterable nature of the eye (seeing), ear (hearing), nose (smells), tongue (tastes), body (sensations), and mind (thoughts), is observable directly here and now within the basic context of normal sense experience. If that is so, then what need is there for it all to totally stop?
The cessation is the experience of nibbana ! there is also a difference between the way a sotapanna observes the arising and passing away of sensations and the way a normal worldling would. A sotapanna always starts from udaya vyaya nana (4th nana) of vipassana and can therefore observe the sensations of any place of his body as soon has he desires to do so whereas, a normal worldling has to start from the start i.e. namarupa pariccheda nana. In your quote above when it is said that the stream enterer 'knows and sees' he really 'knows and sees'.

Metta

Parth
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by kirk5a »

parth wrote: The cessation is the experience of nibbana !
Ok. Well, it seems, apparently, from my perspective (what do I know) there is some kind of disagreement between teachers. When I read, for example, Ajahn Sumedho's recent article "Nirvana Now" http://www.abhayagiri.org/main/article/2147/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; it would seem to be a different understanding of "cessation." Thoughts on this?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Parth »

Dear kirk5a,

In the article the word cessation is used at one place :
It is what it is. What arises ceases. As we recognize that and allow things to cease according to their nature, the realization of cessation gives us an increasing amount of faith in the practice of nonattachment and letting go.
here the word 'cessation' is used for 'passing away' i.e. sensation arises and passes away, all good bad and neutral things (so called) arise and pass away. The article otherwise urges people to try and think of nibbana as something which can be attianed and not to start by thinking out nibbana as something which is too high to be attained in this lifetime as, this thought itself can become a block.

read the concluding part among others:
“Sir,” he said, “there are people stuck midstream in the terror and the fear of the rush of the river of being, and death and decay overwhelm them. For their sakes, Sir, tell me where to find an island, tell me where there is solid ground beyond the reach of all this pain.”

“Kappa,” said the Master, “for the sake of those people stuck in the middle of the river of being, overwhelmed by death and decay, I will tell you where to find solid ground.

“There is an island, an island which you cannot go beyond. It is a place of nothingness, a place of non-possession and of non-attachment. It is the total end of death and decay, and this is why I call it Nibbana [the extinguished, the cool].

“There are people who, in mindfulness, have realized this and are completely cooled here and now. They do not become slaves working for Mara, for Death; they cannot fall into his power.”
Nibbana is defined as a cessation becuause in that state suddenly all sensations and six senses stop functioning, the concept of 'I' also is supposed to vanish.

Hope this clarifies.

Metta

Parth
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Nyana »

parth wrote:Nibbana is defined as a cessation becuause in that state suddenly all sensations and six senses stop functioning, the concept of 'I' also is supposed to vanish.
Firstly, nibbāna isn't a "state." Secondly, nibbāna is the cessation of passion, aggression, and delusion. For a learner it is the cessation of the fetters extinguished on each path. The waking states where "suddenly all sensations and six senses stop functioning" are (1) mundane perceptionless samādhis, and (2) cessation of apperception and feeling. Neither of these are supramundane and neither of these are synonymous with experiencing nibbāna.

All the best,

Geoff
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