Stem-cells

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ceisiwr
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Stem-cells

Post by Ceisiwr »

Is stem cell research in line with buddhist ethics or not?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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cooran
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Re: Stem-cells

Post by cooran »

Hello clw_uk,

What is your understanding of what stem cell research involves?

metta
Chris
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cooran
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Re: Stem-cells

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

'No Harm' Applies to Stem Cell Embryos: One Buddhist's View
Reprinted from the April 2004 issue of Science & Theology News.

Embryos bear the karmic identity of a recently-deceased individual, and so are entitled to the same moral respect as adults.

Scientists see great potential for the use of human stem cells in the treatment of many medical conditions, including Parkinson's and Alzheimer's diseases, diabetes, spinal cord injuries and degenerative heart conditions. Given the emphasis that Buddhism places on the central virtues of knowledge (prajña), compassion (karua) and its long tradition of practicing medicine in the monasteries, the prospect of developing cures and treatments that alleviate human suffering should be welcomed. Buddhism, however, also places great importance on the principle of ahimsa, or non-harming, and therefore has grave reservations about any scientific procedure that destroys life - whether human or animal.

While Buddhism has no central authority competent to pronounce on ethical dilemmas, like other religions, it would appear that there is no ethical problem in principle with the therapeutic use of adult stem cells. But research involving the intentional destruction of human life, such as harvesting embryonic stem cells, is morally impermissible.
Buddhism believes in rebirth and teaches that individual human life begins at conception. The new being, bearing the karmic identity of a recently deceased individual, is therefore as entitled to the same moral respect as an adult human being. For this reason, Buddhism would see the moral issues raised by stem cell research as similar to those raised by IVF treatment involving the destruction of spare embryos and abortion, regardless of the researchers' benevolent intentions or the subsequent positive consequences of the experiments.

It would therefore be immoral for stem cell researchers to use either surplus, unwanted or frozen embryos created for IVF treatment - regardless of whether they would eventually be destroyed - or cloned human embryos specifically created for research purposes, such as the 30 blastocysts recently created in South Korea from which one new stem cell line was derived.

There are a number of different views regarding the use of stem cells taken from aborted fetuses. Some believe it is permissible since the central objection that a living being was harmed through the cell harvesting would not apply because the donor is already deceased. The situation may be analogous to cadaveric organ donation for transplantation where legally valid consent has been obtained from the next of kin. The criterion here is similar to that President Bush employed in his 2001 decision allowing U.S. government-sponsored research to utilize 60 existing embryonic stem cell lines but not to use or develop new ones.

The alternative position takes a stricter view on the question of complicity, stating that the cells obtained through abortion would be tainted by the immorality of the abortion itself and should therefore not be used. The analogy of organ donation would be challenged because the person providing the consent (usually the mother) is the same person directly responsible for the donor's death. A better analogy is with stolen money from a bank robbery used for charitable purposes, something which would still be wrong regardless of the good achieved.

There is scope for legitimate disagreement on this particular point, though the majority of Buddhists may incline toward the former position. It is interesting that Buddhists are the religious majority in the country where the latest breakthrough in stem cell research occurred. Despite the traditional Buddhist opposition to abortion, however, and the fact that abortion for social reasons is illegal, South Korea has been called an "abortion paradise," and figures of more than 1.5 million abortions yearly are often quoted. This suggests there is unresolved dissonance between Buddhist teachings and practice on the moral status of embryonic life.

Damien Keown is a reader at Goldsmiths College in London.
http://www.beliefnet.com/News/Science-R ... -View.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Stem-cells

Post by Ceisiwr »

Thanks for that Chris, adult stem cells im fine with but embryonic stem cells i have more of a moral dilema with, since its either the result of an abortion of created simply for research, however there are massive benefits to be had for the whole human race, while not justifying stem cell research i dont think one can say its evil since good does come from it


Its a difficult topic and one i cant seem to find a satisfying answer for



:namaste:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
green
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Re: Stem-cells

Post by green »

Food for thought...can real medicine and healing come about from intentionally taking life?

I remember in my college biology class, we had to take a frog and bang it's head so that it dies, then hook it up to measure nerve electrical currents. Only a dumb frog, right?

I wonder if it's because of this that most of the medicine that comes out from drug companies have such severe side effects.
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Ben
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Re: Stem-cells

Post by Ben »

green wrote:Food for thought...can real medicine and healing come about from intentionally taking life?

I remember in my college biology class, we had to take a frog and bang it's head so that it dies, then hook it up to measure nerve electrical currents. Only a dumb frog, right?

I wonder if it's because of this that most of the medicine that comes out from drug companies have such severe side effects.
That would suggest that the patient would inherit the kamma of the research scientist. We know from Buddhist doctrine that isn't the case.
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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Rui Sousa
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Re: Stem-cells

Post by Rui Sousa »

One source for stem cells, that would not involve the destruction of life, is the umbilical cord.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbilical_cord
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Re: Stem-cells

Post by green »

Ben wrote:
green wrote:Food for thought...can real medicine and healing come about from intentionally taking life?

I remember in my college biology class, we had to take a frog and bang it's head so that it dies, then hook it up to measure nerve electrical currents. Only a dumb frog, right?

I wonder if it's because of this that most of the medicine that comes out from drug companies have such severe side effects.
That would suggest that the patient would inherit the kamma of the research scientist. We know from Buddhist doctrine that isn't the case.
Kind regards

Ben
Kamma outside of the patita samutpada is non-Buddhist doctrine. We are "interrelated" through kamma.

Someone taking your medicine is directly relating himself to you.
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Re: Stem-cells

Post by jcsuperstar »

green wrote:
Ben wrote:
green wrote:Food for thought...can real medicine and healing come about from intentionally taking life?

I remember in my college biology class, we had to take a frog and bang it's head so that it dies, then hook it up to measure nerve electrical currents. Only a dumb frog, right?

I wonder if it's because of this that most of the medicine that comes out from drug companies have such severe side effects.
That would suggest that the patient would inherit the kamma of the research scientist. We know from Buddhist doctrine that isn't the case.
Kind regards

Ben
Kamma outside of the patita samutpada is non-Buddhist doctrine. We are "interrelated" through kamma.

Someone taking your medicine is directly relating himself to you.
would that make me somehow apart of the holocaust because i drive a VW? it was a product of nazi germany just as the medicine you talk about is a product of that doctor...
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the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Dhammanando
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Re: Stem-cells

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Green,
green wrote:Kamma outside of the patita samutpada is non-Buddhist doctrine. We are "interrelated" through kamma.
Agreed.
Someone taking your medicine is directly relating himself to you.
This sounds more like a Hua Yen take on dependent arising (such as that popularized by Thich Nhat Hanh) than a Theravadin one.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
green
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Re: Stem-cells

Post by green »

'This venerable one is the doer of his actions, heir to his actions, born of his actions, related by his actions, and has his actions as his arbitrator. Whatever action he does, for good or for evil, to that will he fall heir.'
AN 5.161

In other words, we are all born and related to one another through our actions.

Are you guys saying that :
IF Dr. making medicine through hurting other living beings
THEN someone TAKING A MEDICINE BY THAT PERSON or organization (drug company),
and both are putthujana. :smile:

They ARE NOT RELATING eachother TO ONE ANOTHER's kamma?

Are you saying Kamma is not dependantly coarising and that is NOT patitya samutpada. That is an incorrect understanding of kamma. Buddha clearly states, we are related through our kamma.
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Re: Stem-cells

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Green,
green wrote:Buddha clearly states, we are related through our kamma.
You and I aren't related through our kamma, but each isolated nama-rupa complex (Green or Retrofuturist, for example) is related to its own previous states (and conventionally speaking, previous lives) by kamma.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Stem-cells

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Green,
green wrote:In other words, we are all born and related to one another through our actions.

That's not how "kammabandhu" is understood in the Theravada. If the word is translated according to the commentarial understanding it would not be "related by one's actions", but rather, "having kamma as one's relative." In line with the stock commentarial gloss:
  • kammaṃ mayhaṃ bandhu ñātakoti kammabandhu

    "Kamma is my relative, my relation, thus I am kammabandhu."
Are you guys saying that :
IF Dr. making medicine through hurting other living beings
THEN someone TAKING A MEDICINE BY THAT PERSON or organization (drug company),
and both are putthujana. :smile:

They ARE NOT RELATING eachother TO ONE ANOTHER's kamma?
One can certainly trace a connection between the producer of the medicine and its consumer, but this connection is not a matter of kamma and its vipāka.
Are you saying Kamma is not dependantly coarising and that is NOT patitya samutpada.
No, I'm saying that you are extending the scope of kamma beyond that which was taught by the Buddha. To get a proper idea of its scope I would suggest you read the suttas on kamma at Access to Insight and chapter 5 of the Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Mawkish1983
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Re: Stem-cells

Post by Mawkish1983 »

Dhammanando wrote:I would suggest you read the suttas on kamma at Access to Insight
Do it! There is a whole section at Access to Insight about Kamma with loads of relevent suttas! It's a great learning tool, takes out the guess work!
green
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Re: Stem-cells

Post by green »

First and foremost, the only reason we are discussing this is because this is a forum...no Buddhist really wastes time on matters of Kamma or claims to understand it's working. Anyone who claims to have understood the workings of kamma as Buddha taught it, is incorrect.


§ 22. "These four imponderables are not to be speculated about. Whoever speculates about them would go mad & experience vexation. Which four? The Buddha-range of the Buddhas [i.e., the range of powers a Buddha develops as a result of becoming a Buddha]... The jhana-range of one absorbed in jhana [i.e., the range of powers that one may obtain while absorbed in jhana]... The results of kamma... Speculation about [the first moment, purpose, etc., of] the cosmos is an imponderable that is not to be speculated about. Whoever speculates about these things would go mad & experience vexation."

— AN 4.77
Now having said this, let us speculate... :smile:

When a doctor kills, or experiments with living beings -- he does create mixed kamma (some bad (he hurt beings), some good(to help save lives))

- How Dr.s kamma affects the medicine -- it can be good or bad.
- a person who then takes this medicine -- can also be affected (serious side affects or not affected (lucky this time)

Only a Buddha has the capability of seeing the full interactions. But to say that kamma works in isolation is also incorrect.
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