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Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
farmer
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby farmer » Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:25 pm


Parth
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby Parth » Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:12 am

Dear Geoff,

Actually trying to describe / discuss / nibbana in words is something which I would avoid since it cant be done and is not condusive to practise.

Metta :namaste:

Parth

Kenshou
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby Kenshou » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:30 am

That seems like a bit of a cop-out. Discussion has it's limitations but it's not useless. Furthermore, looking at the suttas, it doesn't seem like the Buddha was hesitant to speak about nibbana.

Parth
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby Parth » Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:35 am

:anjali:

rowyourboat
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:14 am

Hmm.. It would seem people are confusing cessation with annihilation. Rather than speculate how the five aggregates cease and how this is not annihilation, it is best to get to that place and see yourselves. But without a doubt it is the cessation of all suffering- just that moment - the point where the fish jumps out of the water and finds for the first time in it's long samsaric life, that there is a place without water. We are swimming in attachment, ignorance and aggregates- release to be understood, must be experienced. This is truly a middle path between annihilation and existence - but even though I say that, that is also prone to misapprehension as some limbo state. The sooner we understand that this thing called nibbana cannot be comprehensively conceptualised, all the wrong views we are now generating in those reading this will hopefully be lessened.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

Nyana
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby Nyana » Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:28 am


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kirk5a
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby kirk5a » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:13 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

Parth
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby Parth » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:45 pm


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kirk5a
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby kirk5a » Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:40 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

rowyourboat
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:42 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

Kenshou
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby Kenshou » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:29 pm

Last edited by Kenshou on Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Alexei
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby Alexei » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:56 pm


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mikenz66
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:05 pm


Kenshou
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby Kenshou » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:45 pm


Nyana
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby Nyana » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:17 am


Nyana
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby Nyana » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:43 am


tinhtan
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby tinhtan » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:43 am


rowyourboat
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:05 am

Hi Goerge, Mike, others..

We seem to be discussing different elements of same process. If I were to put in to some kind of a structure (which hopefully makes some sense of all of this..):

The training process- vipassana/vipassana nana/seeing tilakkana
The yogi sees anicca, dukkha, anatta and the insubstantial nature of the all phenomena (the five aggregates)
This is seen to progress through various stages like nibbida, viraga, nirod/visuddhi/vipassana nana
There is a sense of detachment which progressively gets stronger
There is no 'let-up' in the arising of the aggregates- we perceive everything arising and passing away. ie the object of meditation doesn't change.

The moment of attaining magga-phala/vimutti/release/nibbana (at the 4 stages of stream entry, sakadagami,anagami and arahanth)
Fetters are broken
Aggregates cease/stop arising/emptiness ensues/consciousness ceases/'pitch black emptiness' for a moment (or two)
(this is the culmination of the vipassana practice mentioned above. Detachment is at its highest. Insight/vijja is at its strongest. The lack of avijja ie- the cessation of avijja leads to the ...the cesation of consciousness as per paticcasamuppada)
The object of meditation (and everything else) vanishes.

What happens afterwards
Consciousness is not bound by the fetters just broken
Aggregates start up again
-there is a higher degree of peace

Aggregates 'start up again' -ie arising and passing away resumes as the yogi hasn't died and the body, which is a result of avijja (my interpretation) still continue to function/live- hence the 'ariya' continues to perceive the world. But once the 'jivita-indriya- 'life faculty' also fades there is 'pari-nibbana'- complete cessation, where the aggregates stop arising and all suffering ceases permanently. So in answer to the question does the arahanth suffer- we cannot give a categorical answer as yes or no, but it is to be explained that he does not experience mental suffering, but has the suffering of the aggregates, which will also cease when the arahanth dies.

Re-experiencing of the cessation(nibbana moment)/phala-samawatha/samadhi without perceptions

Ariyas, especially (aparently) those with jhana, can experience the nibbana moment/magga-phala moment repeatedly by entering 'phala'/'fruit' (of the practice). (see Progress of Insight by Mahasi Saydaw).

Nirodha samapatti/Attainment of cessation (?)

This is a special state of cessation or nibbana which can be attained by Non-returners or Arahanths who have developed the formless jhanas. That is having done previous vipassana, thereby destroying the fetters of craving and aversion these ariyas are bound to samsara in a very 'weak' way- hence when they attempt to go into a higher jhana, than that of the highest arupa jhana, they end up in Nirodha- complete sensory cessation. Since each succeeding jhanic level of is more refined than the earlier/grosser ones, it stands to reason that the most subtle, is the highest bliss. ie Nibbana is the highest bliss.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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tiltbillings
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:09 am


rowyourboat
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:13 am

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha


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