Is a UK student loan considered debt

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
Tsetan
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Tsetan »

I'm in the same boat as marcpiano, only i'm in the usa. My student loans began when I was 15 and started college. I finished graduate school in 2006, and found the dharma in 2007. My interest in ordaining has been growing over the past year. My loans are massive, but in a program where if my income is below poverty level, as a monk's surely is, I pay nothing and they are forgiven after 25 years. I believe the monastic calling is the most important type of "work" a human being can engage in, I have no concerns over this debt or desire to escape it, I really have no need to escape it b/c it doesn't really effect me in life as I know it.
To maintain my loans in this federal program I need only provide proof of making less that a certain amount 1x/year.
So, could one ordain under these circumstances? If not, would my best option be to live at a monastery as a layman?
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JimKai
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by JimKai »

Tsetan wrote:I'm in the same boat as marcpiano, only i'm in the usa. My student loans began when I was 15 and started college. I finished graduate school in 2006, and found the dharma in 2007. My interest in ordaining has been growing over the past year. My loans are massive, but in a program where if my income is below poverty level, as a monk's surely is, I pay nothing and they are forgiven after 25 years. I believe the monastic calling is the most important type of "work" a human being can engage in, I have no concerns over this debt or desire to escape it, I really have no need to escape it b/c it doesn't really effect me in life as I know it.
To maintain my loans in this federal program I need only provide proof of making less that a certain amount 1x/year.
So, could one ordain under these circumstances? If not, would my best option be to live at a monastery as a layman?
What are the conditions set for getting student loans in the U.S.? One might assume that with commercial banks the terms would be stricter than with these European quasi-socialist schemes.

If you took on the loan with the bank expecting full return on their investment, I would think it as morally questionable to not seek to repay them, even if you're not conciously avoiding payback. Just my $0.02
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BlackBird
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by BlackBird »

Here in NZ our student loans are interest free, and your typical bachelors degree will see you rack up around $15,000. However if you leave the country for more than 1 year you start incurring interest at market rates. Before I left for Sri Lanka I had a student loan of about $4000 and I worked for about 4 or 5 months paying it off. I know in my country at least the Government expects it back and thus it fulfills the criteria for debt. Your example on the other hand is probably a bit of a grey area.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Tsetan
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Tsetan »

I'm also wondering if taking novice monk vows- samenera- involves the preceptor asking you if you have debt? If that is not a requirement for samenera then I could just remain a novice, which is fine with me, I'll always consider myself a novice anyway.
If I'm totally ineligible for ordination, is it reasonable to just live at a monastery as a layman? Being in the monastic environment is a support for my practice I think I need.
My debt is insurmountable short of winning the lottery, you could buy a large house with this amount of money- but as I said, the debt is not really an issue for me in regular life because I do not make enough money to have to repay it...and I have no aspiration to make lots of money.
I have a real gripe, in fact, with making lots of money in this day and age- as a usa taxpayer, some of my tax money goes to pay for wars and even torture. The more money I make, the more taxes I pay, which I would be fine with except that the money is used by the government, in part, for some pretty bad stuff. If it was just to pay schoolteachers and feed the needy and all that, I would be happy to pay more in taxes.
If I feel that ordination is my path, do I have any chance of making this happen given this debt?
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BlackBird
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by BlackBird »

If you feel your debt is insurmountable, and you wish to ordain, have you considered bankruptcy?
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
Tsetan
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Tsetan »

I would do that in a heartbeat, but student loans, as far as I know, are not discharged with bankruptcy. I is true that I am not obligated, just by having these student loans, to actively seek employment. Also, the feds insure the lender will be repaid in this program, thus I do not feel it would be stealing if I did not pay on them as a monk. Now the feds have to get the money somewhere, but frankly, I do not feel any moral issue, personally, with them repaying the lender. The feds do not mind using my money to pay to bomb people in foreign lands, thus I'm not sure I'd mind them paying my loan so I can cultivate compassion 24/7 as a monk. I'm just thinking out loud right now... All this stuff is very arguable of course.
Tsetan
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Tsetan »

On the other hand, one's poor use of funds does not justify theft... I also feel that as long as I am obeying the rules of this student loan program, I'm ok. There's nothing saying i cannot ordain and make no money...
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Annapurna
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Annapurna »

Tsetan wrote:I would do that in a heartbeat, but student loans, as far as I know, are not discharged with bankruptcy. I is true that I am not obligated, just by having these student loans, to actively seek employment. Also, the feds insure the lender will be repaid in this program, thus I do not feel it would be stealing if I did not pay on them as a monk. Now the feds have to get the money somewhere, but frankly, I do not feel any moral issue, personally, with them repaying the lender. The feds do not mind using my money to pay to bomb people in foreign lands, thus I'm not sure I'd mind them paying my loan so I can cultivate compassion 24/7 as a monk. I'm just thinking out loud right now... All this stuff is very arguable of course.
Yes it is.

The money came from some folks.

It's the anonymity of the "givers" that makes you feel wishi washi about returning the money.
You would feel quite differently if you knew you would owe it to your neighbor, and he had told you that you can pay him back once you start earning your own money.

Right?

If you had to tell your neighbor that you are not going to pay him back, this would be much harder to do than telling an institution:

You can do what you want, but to ME, it wouldn't feel right to accept any kind of support, where I am expected to pay it back once I am able to, and then to cop out and say ha ha, I am outta here.

I know that is a hard choice of words, but this is how it appears to me.
so I can cultivate compassion 24/7 as a monk
Cultivate compassion with the givers of your loan as a start.
Tsetan
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Tsetan »

That's a fair critique. I would be surprised if I'm ever able to fully, or even partially repay the loan before 25 years passes however. I'm inclined to call the loan company and talk to them, give them my thoughts very upfront and see what they say. Paying it back is this difficult because of the interest, the total borrowed, and my income just cannot generate this kind of money, it is not realistic, especially in these times. I didn't know this when I took the loans. There's no desire to leave anyone high and dry.
I'm not willing to do anything at all suspect or quasi-ethical, so probably best I consult with the loan granter themselves, see what they tell me is ok and not ok.
I'm very interested in what others think here, this is helpful!
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Annapurna
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Annapurna »

I would not call them, I would speak eye to eye. That minimum of respect shows your sincerity and would make a better impression.
Tsetan
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Tsetan »

Hmmm that's an interesting thought- I'd much rather speak to someone face to face. I'm not sure where they are but I'll investigate. I have to talk with someone who administers this stuff and is in charge.
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Annapurna
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Annapurna »

:anjali:
Tsetan
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Tsetan »

Interestingly, "nun" and "practitioner" are listed in the USA occupational outlook handbook,under "A177 Religious workers, other" listed as an official occupation. Not sure if this is relevant to our discussion, but interesting.
miggyG
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by miggyG »

How to deal with student debt? I's simple, don't go to University. Hopefully in the future the likes of the some universities will make education free for everyone.
Mawkish1983
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Mawkish1983 »

For some people, university is an appropriate path whatever the cost.
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