The path is the goal, or is it?

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The path is the goal, or is it?

Postby Justsit » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:46 am

The path is the goal. :smile:
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Re: Do you have physical/spiritual goals?

Postby alan » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:00 am

No, it isn't. Your statement is nonsensical.
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Re: Do you have physical/spiritual goals?

Postby VeganLiz » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:10 am

Alan, you gotta rain on someone's parade?

Classy.
"My actions are my only true belongings." Thich Nhat Hanh
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Re: Do you have physical/spiritual goals?

Postby alan » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:29 am

Depends on your definition. I'm not going to accept illogical positions. And I'm not going to be nice for the sake of making people feel good when they say things that just don't make sense.
Staying true to reason, even if it makes you unpopular with the unreasonable--that is what I call Class.
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Re: Do you have physical/spiritual goals?

Postby Ben » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:24 am

Anyway...
Let's get back on topic!
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

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Re: Do you have physical/spiritual goals?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:34 am

Justsit wrote:The path is the goal. :smile:
alan wrote:No, it isn't. Your statement is nonsensical.

Actually, in a real it is, in that as the path is actualized by practicing it, by insight into it, by living it, the goal unfolds. The goal, in my opinion, is not some singular "a-ha" moment, but it is an unfolding, transformation over time.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Do you have physical/spiritual goals?

Postby alan » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:45 am

Hmm...
Not sure if I understand that. But you are joking, right?
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Re: Do you have physical/spiritual goals?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:47 am

alan wrote:Hmm...
Not sure if I understand that. But you are joking, right?
Deadly serious, but it would take a couple of texts and a few more words than 50 to make it clearer.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do you have physical/spiritual goals?

Postby alan » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:07 am

Well then because you are special, I give permission to go beyond 50 words.
Anyone? 300 words to explain the reasoning behind "goal is the path". The only rule is that you have to use logic. Plain, cold, hard logic.
Good luck.
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Re: Do you have physical/spiritual goals?

Postby Kenshou » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:11 am

I could tell you in 301, but that would be too many.

Could you let us know, in 4 words, why we should indulge your preference for short posts?
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Re: Do you have physical/spiritual goals?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:12 am

I think we are off-topic again. It might a new thread for you.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do you have physical/spiritual goals?

Postby Ben » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:21 am

alan wrote:Well then because you are special, I give permission to go beyond 50 words.
Anyone? 300 words to explain the reasoning behind "goal is the path". The only rule is that you have to use logic. Plain, cold, hard logic.
Good luck.


I have to agree with Tilt on this one, Alan.
Here's something from Ven Nyantiloka...
2. the road of moral & good living, the path of righteousness, with ref. to the moral standard (cp. the 10 commandments) & the way to salvation. The exegetic (edifying) etym. of magga in this meaning is "nibbān' atthikehi maggīyati (traced by those who are looking for N.), nibbānaŋ vā maggeti, kilese vā mārento gacchatī ti maggo" (VbhA 114). <-> Usually designated (a) the "ariya aṭṭhangika magga" or the "Noble Eightfold Path" (see aṭṭhangika). It is mentioned at many places, & forms the corner -- stone of the Buddha's teaching as to the means of escaping "dukkha" or the ills of life. It consists of 8 constituents, viz. sammā -- diṭṭhi, sammā -- sankappa, ˚vācā, ˚kammanta, ˚ājīva, ˚vāyāma, ˚sati, ˚samādhi, or right views, right aspirations, right speech, right conduct, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right rapture. The 7 first constituents are at D ii.216 & M iii.71 enumd as requisites for sammā -- samādhi. The name of this table of ethical injunctions is given as "maggam uttamaŋ" at Sn 1130, i. e. the Highest Path. See for ref. e. g. Vin iii.93; iv.26; D ii.353; iii.102, 128, 284, 286; It 18; Nd1 292; Nd2 485; Vbh 104 sq. 235 sq., VbhA 114 sq. (its constituents in detail), 121, 216; Vism 509 sq. (where the 8 constituents are discussed). -- (b) as ariya magga: M iii.72; Pug 17; DA i.176 sq., 225 sq., 233; VbhA 373 sq.; ThA 205. <-> (c) as pañcangika or the Path of 5 constituents (the above first 2 and last 3): Dhs 89; Vbh 110 sq., 237 sq. -- (d) other expressions of same import: dhamma˚ Miln 21; magga alone; S i.191 (Bhagavā maggassa uppādetā etc.)=M iii.9=S iii.66; Sn 429, 441, 724 sq., 1130; Dh 57, 273 sq., It 106; VbhA 53, 73. As the first condition & initial stage to the attainment of Arahantship (Nibbāna) it is often found in sequence of either magga -- phala -- nirodha (e. g. Vism 217, cp. Nd2 under dukkha II. p. 168), or magga, phala, nibbāna (e. g. Tikp. 155 sq., 158; VbhA 43, 316, 488). -- magga as entrance to Arahantship is the final stage in the recognition (ñāṇa, pariññā, paññā) of the truth of the causal chain, which realises the origin of "ill," the possibility of its removal & the "way" to the removal. These stages are described as dukkhe ñāṇaŋ, samudaye ñāṇaŋ nirodhe ñāṇaŋ and magge ñāṇaŋ at D iii.227, Ps i.118. At the latter passage the foll. chapter (i.49) gives dukkha -- nirodha gāminī paṭipadā as identical with magga. -- Note. On the term see Cpd. 41 sq., 66 sq., 175, 186; Dhs trsl.2 58, 299 sq., 362 sq.; Expos. 216, 354n. On passages with aṭṭhangika magga & others where magga is used in similes see Mrs. Rh. D. in J.P.T.S. 1907, pp. 119, 120. -- 3. Stage of righteousness, with ref. to the var. conditions of Arahantship divided into 4 stages, viz. sotāpatti -- magga, sakadāgāmi˚, anāgāmi˚, arahatta˚, or the stage of entering the stream (of salvation), that of returning once, that of the never -- returner, that of Arahantship. -- At DhA i.110 magga -- phala "the fruit of the Path" (i. e. the attainment of the foundation or first step of Arahantship) is identical with sotāpattiphala on p. 113 (a) in general: arahatta˚ S i.78; A iii.391; DA i.224. -- (b) in particular as the 4 paths: Nd2 612 A; Vbh 322 sq., 328, 335; Vism 453, 672<-> 678; DhA iv.30; VbhA 301. -- 4. In the Tikapaṭṭhāna (under magga -- paccaya -- niddesa p. 52) 12 constituents of magga are enumd; viz. paññā, vitakka, sammāvācā, s -- kammanta, s -- ājīva, viriya, sati, samādhi, micchā -- diṭṭhi, micchā -- vācā, m -- kammanta, m -- ājīva.

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... :3729.pali
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


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Re: The path is the goal, or is it?

Postby alan » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:33 am

Painful.
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Re: The path is the goal, or is it?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:42 am

alan wrote:Painful.
Image
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The path is the goal, or is it?

Postby piotr » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:12 am

The path is the goal if you want to wander forever.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
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Re: The path is the goal, or is it?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:23 am

piotr wrote:The path is the goal if you want to wander forever.
If done properly, that becomes the goal.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The path is the goal, or is it?

Postby piotr » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:41 am

tiltbillings wrote:If done properly, that becomes the goal.


Do you mean wandering?
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
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Re: The path is the goal, or is it?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:46 am

piotr wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:If done properly, that becomes the goal.


Do you mean wandering?
Going from mundane Right View to Ariya Right View.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The path is the goal, or is it?

Postby piotr » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:08 am

tiltbillings wrote:Going from mundane Right View to Ariya Right View.


Now I get what you're pointing at. But doesn't it all mean that at some point ariya right view is reached? And besides, I find simile of gradual slope of an ocean more helpful for understanding of your point.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
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Re: The path is the goal, or is it?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:12 am

piotr wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Going from mundane Right View to Ariya Right View.


Now I get what you're pointing at. But doesn't it all mean that at some point ariya right view is reached? And besides, I find simile of gradual slope of an ocean more helpful for understanding of your point.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
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