The path is the goal, or is it?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: The path is the goal, or is it?

Post by tiltbillings »

piotr wrote:The path is the goal if you want to wander forever.
If done properly, that becomes the goal.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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piotr
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Re: The path is the goal, or is it?

Post by piotr »

tiltbillings wrote:If done properly, that becomes the goal.
Do you mean wandering?
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
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tiltbillings
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Re: The path is the goal, or is it?

Post by tiltbillings »

piotr wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:If done properly, that becomes the goal.
Do you mean wandering?
Going from mundane Right View to Ariya Right View.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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piotr
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Re: The path is the goal, or is it?

Post by piotr »

tiltbillings wrote:Going from mundane Right View to Ariya Right View.
Now I get what you're pointing at. But doesn't it all mean that at some point ariya right view is reached? And besides, I find simile of gradual slope of an ocean more helpful for understanding of your point.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
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tiltbillings
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Re: The path is the goal, or is it?

Post by tiltbillings »

piotr wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Going from mundane Right View to Ariya Right View.
Now I get what you're pointing at. But doesn't it all mean that at some point ariya right view is reached? And besides, I find simile of gradual slope of an ocean more helpful for understanding of your point.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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piotr
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Re: The path is the goal, or is it?

Post by piotr »

tiltbillings wrote:There is more than one way to skin a cat.
There is a bunch of cats out there.

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rowyourboat
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Re: The path is the goal, or is it?

Post by rowyourboat »

No need to have 'black and White thinking' : the path is gradual, the goal is gradually developed, and there is culmination of that path and that goal is fully realised- yes, it does include an aha moment at the point of culmination ( otherwise how would you know you are finished)?

Dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, he in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus Ven. Sona became another one of the arahants.
With Metta

Karuna
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Do you have physical/spiritual goals?

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

tiltbillings wrote: Actually, in a real it is, in that as the path is actualized by practicing it, by insight into it, by living it, the goal unfolds. The goal, in my opinion, is not some singular "a-ha" moment, but it is an unfolding, transformation over time.
Maybe it's that our understanding of the goal develops over time?

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meindzai
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Re: The path is the goal, or is it?

Post by meindzai »

You can be all logical about it or just take the statement as a poetic reference that can have different meanings based on context. Kind of like "the whole universe is in a glass of wine." I take it that Alan finds that statement nonsensical as well.

There is certainly a danger of what Thanissaro Bhikkhu warns about here, a kind of Buddhist romanticism. In fact I think he mentions this phrase specifically as something not coming out of Buddhism, but a kind of romantic idea that has crept it's way in. Possibly our Mahayanist neighbors let it in through the back door one day like a stray cat, and now it we are stuck with it too. (Ok, don't over think this metaphor either.)

The danger is that we lose sight of the fact that there *is* a goal (Nibanna) and that we are working towards it, so we just sort of take a go-with-the-flow attitude and don't put a lot of determination (adhitthana) and energy (viriya) into our practice.

The sense in which I find the statement true is that sometimes such an attitude is required to temper overzealousness, especially in meditation. We cannot achieve Nibanna by force of will.

If you want to get technical we can even talk about supermundane right view, stream entry, and a few other suttic ideas that might "back up" the statement. But I'm starting to lose interest in the firing back and forth of sutta quotes these days.

-M
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Nibbida
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Re: The path is the goal, or is it?

Post by Nibbida »

"Path as goal" serves a useful function in getting a person to focus on what intentional choices they are making right now, how mindful they are right now. Of course the goal is nibbana. That's the direction we're moving in, but fixation on the goal, clinging to it, actually becomes a hindrance to reaching it (or working towards it). It's all to easy to fall into that. So this is a "focus on the process, not the product" strategy. Awakening is the general direction, but that is only reached by focusing on now.
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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: The path is the goal, or is it?

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi »

All the really juicy disagreements always seem to come down to the two truths.
It has been the misfortune (not, as these gentlemen think it, the glory) of this age that everything is to be discussed. Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France.
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ground
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Re: The path is the goal, or is it?

Post by ground »

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:All the really juicy disagreements always seem to come down to the two truths.
If one has conditioned oneself in this view then it may appear so.

Kind regards
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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: The path is the goal, or is it?

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi »

TMingyur wrote:
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:All the really juicy disagreements always seem to come down to the two truths.
If one has conditioned oneself in this view then it may appear so.

Kind regards
Touche.
It has been the misfortune (not, as these gentlemen think it, the glory) of this age that everything is to be discussed. Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France.
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