Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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tiltbillings
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by tiltbillings »

Akuma wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:The experience of nibbana at the first stage does not entail any ceasing of the khandhas. In fact they arise and cease as always but citta momentarily contacts nibbana ( which is the element which doesn't arise and thus doesn't cease), after that other processes occur all entailing rise and fall.
Source for this? And where is this nibbana element which contacted?
Theravada Abhidhamma, f.e. as summarized by van Gorkom.
Which Abhidhamma texts?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Akuma
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Akuma »

As I said you can read the summary in van Gorkoms Abhidhamma in Daily life, starting @ chapter 23.
Nibbana[-dhamma] is a synonym in that context for asankhatta-dhamma which you can find f.e. in Dhammasangani at many places, usually translated as "uncompounded element".
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tiltbillings
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by tiltbillings »

Akuma wrote:As I said you can read the summary in van Gorkoms Abhidhamma in Daily life, starting @ chapter 23.
Nibbana[-dhamma] is a synonym in that context for asankhatta-dhamma which you can find f.e. in Dhammasangani at many places, usually translated as "uncompounded element".
And what does "uncompounded element" mean? Does it exist out there somewhere?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Akuma
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Akuma »

tiltbillings wrote:
Akuma wrote:As I said you can read the summary in van Gorkoms Abhidhamma in Daily life, starting @ chapter 23.
Nibbana[-dhamma] is a synonym in that context for asankhatta-dhamma which you can find f.e. in Dhammasangani at many places, usually translated as "uncompounded element".
And what does "uncompounded element" mean? Does it exist out there somewhere?
My personal opinion on that questions the basic assumption of Abhidharma that cittas must have objects. In addition I think that the abhidhammic notion of sequential, momentary moments of awareness which - in Theravada - cognize single objects is maybe useless to explain the moment of realisation but for completeness [the nibbana-dhamma] had to be included.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

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Akuma wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Akuma wrote:As I said you can read the summary in van Gorkoms Abhidhamma in Daily life, starting @ chapter 23.
Nibbana[-dhamma] is a synonym in that context for asankhatta-dhamma which you can find f.e. in Dhammasangani at many places, usually translated as "uncompounded element".
And what does "uncompounded element" mean? Does it exist out there somewhere?
My personal opinion on that questions the basic assumption of Abhidharma that cittas must have objects. In addition I think that the abhidhammic notion of sequential, momentary moments of awareness which - in Theravada - cognize single objects is maybe useless to explain the moment of realisation but for completeness [the nibbana-dhamma] had to be included.
Has it ever occured to you that what you said here is both bone dry and really does not say anything? Give me the suttas that deal with real life.

There is, however, an easy answer to my question, even from an Abhidhamma point of view.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

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tiltbillings wrote:Though what I described to the teacher was in the context of vipassana practice, the experience of the rise and fall of what I was experiencing, particularly in terms of the "falling" away of experience. It was when the final bit experience seemingly fell away, nothing arising, leaving me in a with a period of just "being there" -- no arising of anything through the sense doors, no thought, no anything, just "being there."

The teacher said a bunch of stuff ending with: "You are now a stream-winner." My reply was: "No, I am not." I pointed out to him that this nothing more than an artifact of concentration and that I used to have the exactly same sort of experience when doing prayers as a Catholic as a kid.
Thanks for sharing that Tilt. :thumbsup:

What about the Paṭisambhidāmagga definition that Geoff presented - do you think it's possible to do a self-evaluation according to that? If so, do you spend any time doing that evaluation? I'm not asking you to say whether you think you've reached stream entry or not, just wondering how you approach the matter. Don't consider it at all, or...?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Akuma »

Has it ever occured to you that what you said here is both bone dry and really does not say anything? Give me the suttas that deal with real life.

There is, however, an easy answer to my question, even from an Abhidhamma point of view.
Sorry man I tend to assume that ppl look at Buddhism from the same meta-school perspective as me and tend to presuppose knowledge or critical inquiry that "believers" usually dont have.
In any case to answer that question, no of course Nirvana is not something "out there".
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

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Ñāṇa wrote:
kirk5a wrote:Buuuut, who can tell us whether we've reached stream-entry or not? Isn't it somewhat important to know?... Isn't there some clear canonical standard we can use for ourselves?
Of course there is. The canon tells us that it is the cutting off and full extinguishment (parinibbāna) of the first three fetters. The Paṭisambhidāmagga:
  • How is it that the discernment of contemplating what is cut off is gnosis of liberation (vimuttiñāṇa)?

    By the stream-entry path the following imperfections are completely cut off in his own mind: (1) identity-view (sakkāyadiṭṭhi), (2) doubt (vicikicchā), (3) mistaken adherence to rules and duty (sīlabbataparāmāsa), (4) the underlying tendency of views (diṭṭhānusaya), (5) the underlying tendency of doubt (vicikicchānusaya). Mind is liberated, completely liberated from these five imperfections with their modes of obsession.

    How is it that the discernment of the termination of occurrence in one who is fully aware is gnosis of full extinguishment (parinibbāna ñāṇa)?

    Through the stream-entry path he terminates identity view, doubt, and mistaken adherence to rules and duty.... This discernment of the termination of occurrence in one who is fully aware is gnosis of full extinguishment....

    He causes the cessation of identity view, doubt, and mistaken adherence to rules and duty through the stream-entry path.
All the best,

Geoff
Thanks Geoff. Is there more explanation of those 5 imperfections? How would one recognize their occurrence? What is, exactly, identity-view, doubt, mistaken adherence to rules and duty, the underlying tendency of views and the underlying tendency of doubt?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

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I asked earlier whether Ajahn Chah said more on the nature of stream-entry. I did find this story, retold by Ajahn Amaro.

"The newcomer proudly introduced himself as a stream-enterer (the first stage of Enlightenment in which one is free from the first three of the 10 fetters that bind one to the sensuous world). After replying “In the village I’m from, stream-enterer is another word for a mangy dog,” Ajahn Chah watched the new arrival stomp off in anger. “Well, so much for stream-entry,” he commented in so many words."
http://www.abhayagiri.org/main/article/1878/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My interpretation is that Ajahn Chah was testing the newcomer. And the test seemed to concern whether this person had really gotten past identity-view or not. If this person had, I suspect there would not have been the stomping off in anger. So Ajahn Chah concluded - nope. (I'm sure Ajahn Chah would have tried to help this person more if they had stuck around, but pride seems to have been more important than being open enough to hear what a teacher was saying. Too bad!)

The rest of that article is quite relevant to the question “How do you know when you are enlightened?”
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Parth »

Kirk5a wrote :
My interpretation is that Ajahn Chah was testing the newcomer. And the test seemed to concern whether this person had really gotten past identity-view or not. If this person had, I suspect there would not have been the stomping off in anger. So Ajahn Chah concluded - nope. (I'm sure Ajahn Chah would have tried to help this person more if they had stuck around, but pride seems to have been more important than being open enough to hear what a teacher was saying. Too bad!)
At first stage, one does not get past ego and pride, what identity view means really is that one realises that this body and mind is not "I/ me" and apparantly in the stage beyond, there is no "I" so while the view goes away but ego and pride continue.

What Ajahn Chah was probably testing was humility and zest for learning.

Regards

Parth
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by rowyourboat »

I think Ajhan Chah was testing whether this man could let go of him-self even for a little bit- and see the jibe with wisdom (that he should have gained)- clearly he couldn't.

There are loads of methods of evaluating whether a person is a stream entrant:

This sutta for example, and those suttas linked to underneath

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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tiltbillings
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by tiltbillings »

Akuma wrote:
Has it ever occured to you that what you said here is both bone dry and really does not say anything? Give me the suttas that deal with real life.

There is, however, an easy answer to my question, even from an Abhidhamma point of view.
Sorry man I tend to assume that ppl look at Buddhism from the same meta-school perspective as me and tend to presuppose knowledge or critical inquiry that "believers" usually dont have.
Huh? Believers don't have?. I have not found the Sujin/Van Gorkom version of Buddhism particularly characteristic of critical inquiry.
In any case to answer that question, no of course Nirvana is not something "out there".
Does it "exist" outside the individual who has destroyed greed, hatred and delusion?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Though what I described to the teacher was in the context of vipassana practice, the experience of the rise and fall of what I was experiencing, particularly in terms of the "falling" away of experience. It was when the final bit experience seemingly fell away, nothing arising, leaving me in a with a period of just "being there" -- no arising of anything through the sense doors, no thought, no anything, just "being there."

The teacher said a bunch of stuff ending with: "You are now a stream-winner." My reply was: "No, I am not." I pointed out to him that this nothing more than an artifact of concentration and that I used to have the exactly same sort of experience when doing prayers as a Catholic as a kid.
Thanks for sharing that Tilt. :thumbsup:

What about the Paṭisambhidāmagga definition that Geoff presented - do you think it's possible to do a self-evaluation according to that? If so, do you spend any time doing that evaluation? I'm not asking you to say whether you think you've reached stream entry or not, just wondering how you approach the matter. Don't consider it at all, or...?
With any sort of evaluation, there is always the possibility of being wrong and being wrong with the unflagging certitude that one is right, which then makes one really, really wrong. Self-evaluate, but don't hang onto it. Continue with the practice.

Dhp 271-272. Not by rules and observances, not even by much learning, nor by gain of absorption, nor by a life of seclusion, nor by thinking, "I enjoy the bliss of renunciation, which is not experienced by the worldling" should you, O monks, rest content, until the utter destruction of cankers (Arahantship) is reached.

"Pitch-black emptiness" is just pitch-black emptiness. What matters is not experiencing pitch-black emptiness; rather, what matters is the ability to simply let go, of not investing oneself into one's experiences, seeing that the self is part of a process of rising and falling. There is nothing that can be forced here. It is a natural unfolding that arises from simply paying attention to what we are.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by kirk5a »

Fair enough, and nicely said Tilt. I can live with that.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:Fair enough, and nicely said Tilt. I can live with that.
Thank you. The interesting things is that I could be wrong about some of this, but I do not think I am wrong about the need to continue with the practice and to simply learn not to invest oneself into such ideas as being a stream-winner. Anyway, it has been a good discussion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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