Prayer request forum.

Tell us how you think the forum can be improved. We will listen.

Prayer request forum.

Postby Individual » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:12 pm

Could we have a prayer sub-forum?
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
Individual
 
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: Prayer request forum.

Postby clw_uk » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:13 pm

I didnt think Theravadins pray?
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Prayer request forum.

Postby Individual » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:28 pm

clw_uk wrote:I didnt think Theravadins pray?

They do, but generally without ignorant presuppositions.

Prayer in the sense of "expressing goodwill" towards another (ex: thinking I hope Dhammanando gets well", "I hope Retrofuturist gets well," etc.) is definitely a Theravadin practice.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
Individual
 
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: Prayer request forum.

Postby clw_uk » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:31 pm

True, i suppose it depends on what you mean by prayer since its such a broad term

My understanding is that in Buddhism or at least Theravada its only used as a secondary tool as an aid to meditation so not like the theistic religions where prayer is communication with a being or an attempt to change situations for the better
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Prayer request forum.

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:11 am

If we are going to have something like that, let us call it something else that does not have a theistic/Christian ring to it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19917
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Prayer request forum.

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:01 am

Greetings Individual,

I don't see why someone couldn't already instigate such a request from within the Lounge or Personal Experience forum as they have done previously?

Generally speaking, we're reluctant to create new forums that will be virtually empty and/or lead to Dhamma Wheel becoming a labyrinthine maze of sub-forums etc. We like to see how such a restructure can facilitate discussion in a way that wasn't possible before, rather than just disperse it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14784
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Prayer request forum.

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:41 am

Hi Craig,

clw_uk wrote:I didnt think Theravadins pray?


In the Suttas (AN. ii. 164) "right praying" (sammā āyācamānā) for a monk means praying: "May I be like the venerables Sāriputta and Moggallāna!" For a nun it means: "May I be like the therīs Khemā and Uppalavaṇṇā!" For a layman it means: "May I be like the householders Citta and Hatthaka Āḷavaka!" For a laywoman it means, "May I be like Khujjuttarā and Veḷukaṇḍakī!"

The commentary to this sutta says that praying for anything other than the above is merely "wrong wishing" (micchā patthanā).

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
User avatar
Dhammanando
 
Posts: 1363
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Wat Pa Mieng Khun Pang, Chiang Mai

Re: Prayer request forum.

Postby Ben » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:49 am

Hi Ajahn

Dhammanando wrote:Hi Craig,

clw_uk wrote:I didnt think Theravadins pray?


In the Suttas (AN. ii. 164) "right praying" (sammā āyācamānā) for a monk means praying: "May I be like the venerables Sāriputta and Moggallāna!" For a nun it means: "May I be like the therīs Khemā and Uppalavaṇṇā!" For a layman it means: "May I be like the householders Citta and Hatthaka Āḷavaka!" For a laywoman it means, "May I be like Khujjuttarā and Veḷukaṇḍakī!"

The commentary to this sutta says that praying for anything other than the above is merely "wrong wishing" (micchā patthanā).

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu



Does that mean as a lay-person, it is pointless to aspire to be more like Venerable Sariputta or Ven. Mahakassapa?
Kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
User avatar
Ben
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16311
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Land of the sleeping gods

Re: Prayer request forum.

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:16 pm

Hi Ben,

Ben wrote:Does that mean as a lay-person, it is pointless to aspire to be more like Venerable Sariputta or Ven. Mahakassapa?


I wouldn't read it as meaning that it would necessarily be pointless for a layperson to aspire to be more like Sāriputta, but rather as naming the most fitting exemplars for each of the four classes of follower.

This is how it is phrased in the sutta:

    "Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu of faith, praying rightly, should pray thus: 'May I be like Sāriputta and Moggallāna!' These, bhikkhus, are the measure, these are the standard for my bhikkhu disciples, namely, Sāriputta and Moggallāna."

The same phrasing is repeated for the other three aspirations, replacing "bhikkhu" with "bhikkhuni" etc.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
User avatar
Dhammanando
 
Posts: 1363
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Wat Pa Mieng Khun Pang, Chiang Mai

Re: Prayer request forum.

Postby phil » Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:00 am

Dhammanando wrote:Hi Ben,

Ben wrote:Does that mean as a lay-person, it is pointless to aspire to be more like Venerable Sariputta or Ven. Mahakassapa?


I wouldn't read it as meaning that it would necessarily be pointless for a layperson to aspire to be more like Sāriputta, but rather as naming the most fitting exemplars for each of the four classes of follower.

This is how it is phrased in the sutta:

    "Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu of faith, praying rightly, should pray thus: 'May I be like Sāriputta and Moggallāna!' These, bhikkhus, are the measure, these are the standard for my bhikkhu disciples, namely, Sāriputta and Moggallāna."

The same phrasing is repeated for the other three aspirations, replacing "bhikkhu" with "bhikkhuni" etc.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu


Hello Bhante

This is probably why I feel a bit confused when reciting the sublime abidings which includes "may all the devas protect you through the power of all the Buddhas/Dhamma/Sangha" towards the end. It feels like a prayer.

I'm not asking for an explanation, mind you. Just always find it a bit incongruous with the rest of the teachings. Tbe "may all beings be happy" etc doesn't feel incongruous because there is the understanding that beings can only be happy through their own deeds. But "may the devas protect you" doesn't quite fit for me. Perhaps the protection of the devas is conditional on our kamma?

Metta,

Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
User avatar
phil
 
Posts: 697
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:08 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: Prayer request forum.

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:59 am

Hi Phil,
phil wrote: This is probably why I feel a bit confused when reciting the sublime abidings which includes "may all the devas protect you through the power of all the Buddhas/Dhamma/Sangha" towards the end. It feels like a prayer.

Which chant is that in? I'm only familiar with this version:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#sublime

Metta
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10667
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Prayer request forum.

Postby Dhammanando » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:44 am

Hi Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:Which chant is that in? I'm only familiar with this version:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#sublime


It's part of the anumodanā chant from the Mahājayamaṅgalagāthā:

    bhavatu sabbamaṅgalaṃ
    rakkhantu sabbadevatā
    sabba-buddhānubhāvena
    sadā sotthī bhavantu te.


    bhavatu sabbamaṅgalaṃ
    rakkhantu sabbadevatā
    sabba-dhammānubhāvena
    sadā sotthī bhavantu te.

    bhavatu sabbamaṅgalaṃ
    rakkhantu sabbadevatā
    sabba-saṅghānubhāvena
    sadā sotthī bhavantu te.


    May all good fortune come your way,
    May all the devas protect you,
    By all the power of the Buddha
    May you always enjoy well-being.

    May all good fortune come your way,
    May all the devas protect you,
    By all the power of the Dhamma
    May you always enjoy well-being.

    May all good fortune come your way,
    May all the devas protect you,
    By all the power of the Saṅgha
    May you always enjoy well-being

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
User avatar
Dhammanando
 
Posts: 1363
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Wat Pa Mieng Khun Pang, Chiang Mai

Re: Prayer request forum.

Postby phil » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:16 am

Hi Mike

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Phil,
phil wrote: This is probably why I feel a bit confused when reciting the sublime abidings which includes "may all the devas protect you through the power of all the Buddhas/Dhamma/Sangha" towards the end. It feels like a prayer.

Which chant is that in? I'm only familiar with this version:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#sublime

Metta
Mike


It's included in the version of sublime abides you linked us too, actually, towards the end.

Thanks also, Bhante, for the reference.

OK, I think I took this thread off topic. .

Metta,

Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
User avatar
phil
 
Posts: 697
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:08 am
Location: Tokyo


Return to Suggestion box

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests