Real meaning of nibbida - disenchantment without aversion

[starter]

Hello Teachers/Friends,

Again my heartfelt thanks to all your kind great help. As I explained before, I usually don't reply individually just to say "thanks" or "good post" unless I have something to say, because I'd like every post of mine not to waste your valuable time.

I just listened to Ajaan Chah's Dhamma talk "the Natural Mind", which makes me ponder about the real meaning of nibbida. I just realized that I've misunderstood "nibbida" as 'revulsion' (intense aversion, which transforms into a strong desire to 'escape' from samsara). As long as we have 'revulsion', we are actually still strongly attached to the things causing us suffering and we are craving to be away from them, such clinging and craving is itself a cause of suffering.

But the "nibbida" the Buddha was talking about is more like disenchantment with no attachment -- neither attraction nor aversion, which arises from the real understanding of "anicca" -- seeing both the pleasant feelings and unpleasant feelings are not lasting so neither are worthy of clinging. If "anicca" is truly understood, then there should be no "revulsion" or "craving for escaping".

The right understanding of "nibbida" can bring us a deep sense of detachment from the five aggregates and the six objects. Whether or not things accord with our likes or dislikes, it doesn't matter to us anymore, since we no longer identify with them or cling to them and we don't give them a reason to cause us suffering. It's this clinging to liking/disliking, not the things themselves (not things being destroyed around us moment by moment), the cause of our suffering, and "whatever causes suffering is itself Dukkha".

With metta,

Starter

[rowyourboat]

Hi Starter,

In my experience you are describing viraga, the state which arises after our attachment to the aggregates fall away, leaving a sense of detachment, but nevertheless clearly comprehending the unsatisfactory, impermanent nature of phenomena.

As I mentioned in a previous post to you, if you can become a bit detached from the aggregates prior to doing the vipassana, it becomes a lot easier and there will be less suffering caused by attachment to the aggregates. I believe those who are attached to the aggregates have the most amount of suffering when they are going through this stage- when they are still fighting the insight (which is forcing them to let go)- this causes suffering. After insight wins (yeah!) then there is viraga. This is a calm acceptance that anicca, dukkha, anatta is real and is here to stay- and there is no point fighting against it.

This 'revulsion' (perhaps a bad translation) is not an aversion, but a suffering caused by craving/attachment.

We do not develop aversion towards samsara- there would be no escape for as we would be clinging to something called nibbana (ie- it is attachment to a concept). It is merely a deep (dare I say) 'intellectual'- wisdom oriented/understanding of unsatisfactoriness, rather than the development of an aversion. It is this wisdom-insight which cuts the clinging to the aggregates. Aversion cannot cut in that way- it can only suppress, push away or head in the opposite direction. Aversion will take you from point A in samsara to point B in samsara (because it doesn't like point A..). It cannot take you from Samsara to Nirvana.

Imagine a paper stuck to a tire, falling away, after the stickiness dries away (lets just say..). This drying process is the process of insight-vipassana. What falls away is the aggregates. What 'remains' (the dark tire) is nibbana.

with metta

Matheesha

[starter]

Hello Martheesha,

Thanks for the helpful posts. About your explanation of "nibbida":
"This 'revulsion' (perhaps a bad translation) is not an aversion, but a suffering caused by craving/attachment."

Is "nibbida" translated into "disenchantment"? "Disenchantment" means "To free from illusion or false belief; undeceive". Would the "illusion or false belief" which has deceived us be our identification with things (to be "I" and "Mine") and clinging to our likes/dislikes of things, instead of things themselves or the suffering caused by them?

Is "viraga" translated into "dispassion"? I'd think "dispassion" is the result of "disenchantment", and only disenchantment without attraction or aversion can lead to such dispassion; "revulsion" doesn't seem to generate such dispassion.

Metta,

Starter

[starter]

Just realized this morning the following:

Disenchantment (stop identifying with things and clinging to our likes/dislikes of things) leads to Dispassion;
Dispassion leads to Cessation (of greed, aversion and delusion);
Cessation (of greed, aversion and delusion) leads to Liberation

[rowyourboat]