Why not ordain?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Viscid
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by Viscid »

Vardali wrote:
cooran wrote: It is simply paying respect to those worthy of respect.
It's fine to pay respect but that doesn't have to include "worship" (which I understand as blind idolation) nor bowing (which appears to me a cultural/traditional form for expressing respect rather than a necessity in itself). Respect for the Buddha's achievement and his wisdom can well be expressed in speech, general behaviour etc.

If Viscid was coming from that angle, I would actually agree with him in that the Buddha does not warrant any (special) idolation/worship.
My point is that the outstanding degree to which Buddhist monks express their reverence for The Buddha does not reflect my respect for him. If I were to ordain, and had to also express reverence to The Buddha to such a degree, I would feel deceitful.

I respect Neil Armstrong for being the first man on the moon. I do not revere him. If I were to attempt a moon landing, I'd see what he did right and do the same. I wouldn't recant his name, I wouldn't bow to his image, but I would still have a great deal of respect and admiration for his accomplishment.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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Alex123
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by Alex123 »

Viscid wrote:While Buddhist teachings are remarkably accurate, and the Theravadin Sangha is probably the best developed monastic community there is, the requirement to treat The Buddha with reverence is unsubstantiated.

IMHO, to treat Buddha with reverence means to follow his teaching (purify one's mind from all unwholesome states and reach ultimate peace).
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Goofaholix
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by Goofaholix »

Viscid wrote:My point is that the outstanding degree to which Buddhist monks express their reverence for The Buddha does not reflect my respect for him. If I were to ordain, and had to also express reverence to The Buddha to such a degree, I would feel deceitful.

I respect Neil Armstrong for being the first man on the moon. I do not revere him. If I were to attempt a moon landing, I'd see what he did right and do the same. I wouldn't recant his name, I wouldn't bow to his image, but I would still have a great deal of respect and admiration for his accomplishment.
You are correct of course, except why would you assume that respect for Buddha involves respect for a man who lived and died 2500 years ago?

Buddha means a quality of knowing, this is what one should pay respect to because this is our ideal.

Even if one thinks that we shouldn't pay respect to the quality of knowing in a ritualistic way the point of the ritual is the affect it has on one's mind and ones other practises, it's just a practise like any other.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
EmptyShadow
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by EmptyShadow »

:focus:

I guess i 'm not ordained for several reasons, and the main is that over the years when i was younger i developed something like sociophobia.I feel unease when i'm around ppl i dont know, and having to talk with strangers is usualy painful for me, i dont feel like sharing my views or talking about random staff at all, and usualy i have regrets after i say something like "why i said this or instead of that or why i acted like this instead otherwise.."(only in real life tho, no problems behind a computer :tongue: ).And since the life of a bhikkhu is more or less involved with social contacts i would feel realy uncomfortable.

As a lay person i have hopes and aspirations that i can achieve progress in meditation on my own and attain stream-entry althow sometimes it seems impossible to me, with my lack of persistency and attachment to sensual pleasures.
Anyway i think that the ordained life is most supportive for the realisation of the dhamma and i would encourage anyone who have seriouse thoughts about it.

I remember in some of the posts on E-sangha forum that some of the moderators have related a story about asking an elder bhikkhu how he can describe his expirience in the monkhood.And the bhikkhu's answer was something like this: At first it was alot of pain - pain in the knees, pain in the head, pain in the back.. but after that there was a lot of happiness and peace.
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pilgrim
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by pilgrim »

Viscid wrote:
My point is that the outstanding degree to which Buddhist monks express their reverence for The Buddha does not reflect my respect for him. If I were to ordain, and had to also express reverence to The Buddha to such a degree, I would feel deceitful.

I respect Neil Armstrong for being the first man on the moon. I do not revere him. If I were to attempt a moon landing, I'd see what he did right and do the same. I wouldn't recant his name, I wouldn't bow to his image, but I would still have a great deal of respect and admiration for his accomplishment.
This approach to the Dhamma strikes me as one holding to a cup that's already full. Why not approach the Dhamma with a "don't -know mind"? , with a fresh perspective that allows new experiences and insights? if one's mind is already made up, what is there to learn? In the Theravada tradition that is a meditation known as Buddhanusati where one recalls the Buddha's great qualities and cultivates saddha, the first of the 5 spiritual powers (pance-bala) . The exercise of bowing is part of this meditative exercise. Many of the forms of Theravada practice may seem insignificant or meaningless initially, but will reveal itself to be of great importance to the practitioner later.
nobody12345
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by nobody12345 »

For me, there are two reasons.

1. My old parent.
I am an only child and I am going to take care of them until they die.
I do not have any good memory or any bond with them.
If I am not a Buddhist, I might cut all the ties with them and never even talk to them again.
They verbally and physically abused me all the way till my late teens.
However, since I take the teaching of the Buddha very seriously, I will do my duty as a son whether I like it or not since the Buddha emphasized the importance of taking care of one's parents.
I will do everything I can to take care of them except getting married and having an offspring.
That would be my ultimate fetter that will bind me to Samsara ever closely.
My only reason to live at this point is to reach the status of Anagami.
So even though I am willing to take up the duty of an only child all the way (Because of the Buddha's teaching), I am avoiding sex, geting married, and having a child.
Having family would be a huge hindrance since all I want in life is to reach the status of Anagami by any means necessary.

2. Health issue.
I have 2 issues.
The first one is constipation.
No, I am not kidding.
I can't take just ramdom foods given to me by lay people.
Because of constipation, I have to arrange diet/meal to prevent constipation attack.
The second issue is 8 hours of sleeping.
In monastic setting, one can't get 8 hours of sleep.
However, I do need 8 hours of sleep.
I tried all the different durations of sleep but my body couldn't handle it.
My immune system always shut down and I would get sick.

So unfortunately, I have to be a lay person (at least while my parents still alive).
However I am doing everything I can to minimize the downside of lay life.
I refrain from sex and eating recreational foods (anything that is sweet such as various dessert) and watching TV shows and etc.
My all time favorite food/snack is 'Scottish Shortbread'.
And I have ate it only once during last 15 years.
And after that, had a huge guilt trip.
So basically, I am avoiding sense pleasure as much as possible.
I don't want life of fun, games, delicacies, hot sex, entertainment and etc.
All I want is to reach the certain stage of development, i.e. Anagamiship.
According to the Pali Canon, Anagamiship is possible for a lay person.
And I am willing to do everything humanly possible as a lay person to reach that status.

Metta.
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Bodhisurfer
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by Bodhisurfer »

bodom wrote:Hi FB,

I have a family with young children that I have responsibilities too....

:anjali:
:juggling: that pretty much says it for me too -though keep threatening to run off and become a Bhikku if they dont tidy their rooms, do their chores, homework.... :thinking:
Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya
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Future Bhikkhu
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by Future Bhikkhu »

imaginos wrote:For me, there are two reasons...
You have a noble purpose and I wish you all the best. I most admire your effort and great compassion for your parents. Strive on with diligence!

With metta,

:anjali:
The mind is everything; what you think you become.
-The Buddha
nobody12345
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by nobody12345 »

Future Bhikkhu wrote:
imaginos wrote:For me, there are two reasons...
You have a noble purpose and I wish you all the best. I most admire your effort and great compassion for your parents. Strive on with diligence!

With metta,

:anjali:
Thank you for the kind words.
I wish you the attainment of the supreme goal of the holy life, for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now.
I wish the body you now wear will be the last one of yours.
Metta.
:anjali:
Vossaga (Element)

Re: Why not ordain?

Post by Vossaga (Element) »

Future Bhikkhu wrote:I was interested in hearing why you do not ordain.
When I found Buddhism, my mind had too much suffering. To practise & extinguish the fire was the most urgent thing.

:meditate:
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ground
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by ground »

Future Bhikkhu wrote:I was interested in hearing why you do not ordain. I know that many of you are well versed and practiced but if you know that life is full of suffering, why do you not strive to end that suffering with the most effective way possible? All opinons are valid.

With metta,

:anjali:
Two reasons: 1. Cowardice. 2. If I overcame this cowardice I would be stuck in a gap since monasteries belong either to the Theravada or the Mahayana tradition.

Now I am stuck in a gap too but it feels quite comfortable not to be pulled to one of two sides. Not to decide. Nothing to decide. Where could there be support for decision?

Conclusion:
I feel that non-ordained life is more appropriate currently because it complies with the fact that there is no support. My solution is an approximation of "living in the world but 'being ordained' 'internally'". I feel that body and mind can be the monastery and am working on this. My current circumstances are quite conducive but I have to admit that I am failing to use them very efficiently.


Kind regards
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altar
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by altar »

I am living an unordained "lay" life with aspirations to ordain, and I thought I would share the three suttas that come to mind most when thinking of ordination.
One is the Ratthapala sutta.
One is a sutta in the Samyutta I think, in which a young student goes to a monk and asks for the going forth. The monk tells him to wait. After a year he goes back and the same thing happens. On the third year he ordains him. Shortly thereafter or a few months later, he asks for leave and visits the Buddha. The Buddha asks him if he was recently ordained or not. He says yes, and the Buddha asks if he is well studied in the doctrine, and the follower-become-monk recites verses now found somewhere in the khuddakkha nikaya of early discourses. the buddha then asks why it was so long before he ordained. And he replies that he had family life to take care of. And the Buddha replies something to the effect of "Hard, indeed, is it to leave the tangle of householder's life."
The next one is one in which the buddha reprimands (or at least corrects for the future) several monks, cited in the patimokkha, for not ordaining one who wishes the going forth during the rains. After the rains is over he no longer wishes to ordain. So there is a rule made, that one shouldn't be denied ordination on the basis of the rains retreat.
Another one has come to mind in which someone asks Sariputta what is hard to do in this dhamma and discipline, and he replies going forth. And there is a succession of questions following, what is hard to find for someone who has gone forth, and the answer is joy or contentment, i think, and it goes on in this way.
If anyone likes these examples someone else might have their own?
perkele
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by perkele »

Thinking of ordination, this comes to my mind:

Ina Sutta (AN 6.45)
“Similar, O monks, is it with anyone who lacks faith in wholesome qualities, who has no sense of shame or moral dread in regard to wholesome qualities, no energy or wisdom in regard to wholesome qualities. Such a one is called poor, destitute, and indigent in the Discipline of the Noble One.

“If now such a man who is poor, destitute and indigent through his lack of faith, shame, moral dread, energy and wisdom concerning wholesome qualities, conducts himself badly in deeds, words, and thoughts, this I call his getting into debt.

“If, to cover up his bad conduct in deeds, words, and thoughts, he harbours in himself evil wishes; if he desires, plans, chooses his words, and tries to act in such a way that nobody may come to know his nature—this I call the interest (to be paid on his moral debts). [46]

“Then virtuous monks speak about him thus: ’This venerable monk acts thus; he behaves in such and such a way.’ This I call the pressure on him.

“If he resorts to the forest, the foot of a tree or a solitary place, he is pursued by evil, unwholesome thoughts connected with remorse. This I call his being harassed.

“Such a (morally) poor, destitute, and indigent person of bad conduct, with the breakup of the body, after death, will be bound by the bonds of hell or the bonds of the animal realm. And I know of no other imprisonment, monks, that is so cruel, so harsh, so painful and such an obstacle to attaining the unsurpassed security from bondage as the bonds of hell and of the animal realm.”
For a person like me this seems to ring true in a most dreadful way. :strawman:
pannananda
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by pannananda »

I was a monk for 13 years and am now seriously considering re ordaining.

I struggled throughout the 13 years because though I was dedicated to the goal-nibbana-I was too attached to sense pleasures. Another way to put it would be that I desired the ultimate sukha but couldn't see dukkha.

A lot of water has passed under the bridge since then and as a 48 year old I look on life very differently. I still want the ultimate happiness and the notion of dukkha coupled with weariness of the world and sensuality is now very much there.

I have been visiting monasteries, normally every year, for a few days, since disrobing. I used to look forward to seeing my old mates but couldn't concentrate and was always glad to be back home in front of the telly, with the missus. Now when I visit, I don't want to leave and meditation is easier.

So I know the time for me to (re) ordain has come.

My advice to anyone else is to stay in monasteries for extended periods and if you want it to carry on then go for it. No one can meditate all the time, so if you are bored pick up a teach yourself Pali book and start learning. Reading suttas in Pali is very inspiring.
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Dan74
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by Dan74 »

pannananda wrote:I was a monk for 13 years and am now seriously considering re ordaining.

I struggled throughout the 13 years because though I was dedicated to the goal-nibbana-I was too attached to sense pleasures. Another way to put it would be that I desired the ultimate sukha but couldn't see dukkha.

A lot of water has passed under the bridge since then and as a 48 year old I look on life very differently. I still want the ultimate happiness and the notion of dukkha coupled with weariness of the world and sensuality is now very much there.

I have been visiting monasteries, normally every year, for a few days, since disrobing. I used to look forward to seeing my old mates but couldn't concentrate and was always glad to be back home in front of the telly, with the missus. Now when I visit, I don't want to leave and meditation is easier.

So I know the time for me to (re) ordain has come.

My advice to anyone else is to stay in monasteries for extended periods and if you want it to carry on then go for it. No one can meditate all the time, so if you are bored pick up a teach yourself Pali book and start learning. Reading suttas in Pali is very inspiring.
Your post reminded me of the film Samsara.



All the best with ordaining this time around!

:bow: :bow: :bow:
_/|\_
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