I was told by a person (who doesn't really like me) that, "In imparting the Dharma, we need to develop skill and means. The capability/aptitude of the listener/questioner should be the springboard.
When a newbie claims naive to Buddha Dharma should ask what they should do to become a Buddhist, suggesting to take Refuge and the Precepts is definitely unskillful."
Is it really unskillful to tell the truth? What harm could befall telling others about taking refuge and taking up the precepts?
When someone asks what it takes to become a Buddhist...
- Wizard in the Forest
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When someone asks what it takes to become a Buddhist...
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir
Re: When someone asks what it takes to become a Buddhist...
Nothing. Your suggestion is a good one.
- Bonsai Doug
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Re: When someone asks what it takes to become a Buddhist...
As I see it... none. Certainly every other religion is openly free with informationWizard in the Forest wrote:What harm could befall telling others about taking refuge and taking up the precepts?
needed to enter into, and participate in their chosen religion, faith, philosophy, etc.
I view this as right speech and right intention.
Now having obtained a precious human body,
I do not have the luxury of remaining on a distracted path.
~ Tibetan Book of the Dead
I do not have the luxury of remaining on a distracted path.
~ Tibetan Book of the Dead
- Wizard in the Forest
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Re: When someone asks what it takes to become a Buddhist...
They said when I asked them what they meant,
There is no fee to practice Dhamma, nor is the precepts or refuge something that we bar people however new from taking. It is a shelter from a storm, what monsters would bar others from entering unless they satisfy someone else's perceptions of ones understanding of how solemnly someone takes the precepts? Buddhism isn't an elitist club, its an all encompassing fact. Such elitist conceptions are disgusting, and reflect your ego,, not Buddha's teachings. You might want to keep others from taking refuge and the precepts unless they satisfy your sense of uncertainty at how ardently they will practice, but making such arrogant assumptions are not in line with the Buddha Dhamma neither in doctrine nor discipline.
Although what I said was true, I am upset that I got mad over another person's hypocrisy. What is some advice you can give about how to handle this anger in line with the Dhamma?
I got mad, which is totally my fault and said,There are lots to learn for a Newbie. Firstly, the 4 Noble Truth, the 8 Foldpath or 6 Paramitas and other basic Teachings must sit well with his/hers understanding. Then the meaning of Refuge of Buddha, Dharma and Sangha has to be well comprehended and the responsibility and what it entails of taking the precepts.
If someone wants to fly a plane, he/she has a lot to learn before he/she even gets to sit in one. It will be unskillful to put that someone in the cockpit and say, "Fly it". He/she will crash even before the plane can take off.
If we want to join some elite club, don't we want to know more about this club before we pay the expensive fee and join?
Feeding a baby a chunk of meat instead of what babies should eat is not knowing what babies are. A Newbie is like a baby.
I think we are talking about common sense here. Good foundation is very important. With good foundation slowly built and secure, the Refuge and Precepts will not easily be shaken.
Without good foundation, it will never last.
What harm?
Practicing the Dharma can be like handling a knife with two sided edge, we can easily cut ourself instead of cutting what we want to cut.
Do not underestimate or take too lightly the karmic result of breaking Precepts and forsaking the Refuge. Many think thats it a 'cool' thing to do, like joining some trendy club, the ' In' thing to do. Will not go into detail on the negative consequences of breaking precepts and forsaking the Refuge but one should know well before embarking and even then we will still break minor precepts everyday.
There is no fee to practice Dhamma, nor is the precepts or refuge something that we bar people however new from taking. It is a shelter from a storm, what monsters would bar others from entering unless they satisfy someone else's perceptions of ones understanding of how solemnly someone takes the precepts? Buddhism isn't an elitist club, its an all encompassing fact. Such elitist conceptions are disgusting, and reflect your ego,, not Buddha's teachings. You might want to keep others from taking refuge and the precepts unless they satisfy your sense of uncertainty at how ardently they will practice, but making such arrogant assumptions are not in line with the Buddha Dhamma neither in doctrine nor discipline.
Although what I said was true, I am upset that I got mad over another person's hypocrisy. What is some advice you can give about how to handle this anger in line with the Dhamma?
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir
Re: When someone asks what it takes to become a Buddhist...
Firstly, I'd ask if what you said really is true? Is the person a "monster"? Are the person's assumptions arrogant? What makes you so sure?Wizard in the Forest wrote:There is no fee to practice Dhamma, nor is the precepts or refuge something that we bar people however new from taking. It is a shelter from a storm, what monsters would bar others from entering unless they satisfy someone else's perceptions of ones understanding of how solemnly someone takes the precepts? Buddhism isn't an elitist club, its an all encompassing fact. Such elitist conceptions are disgusting, and reflect your ego,, not Buddha's teachings. You might want to keep others from taking refuge and the precepts unless they satisfy your sense of uncertainty at how ardently they will practice, but making such arrogant assumptions are not in line with the Buddha Dhamma neither in doctrine nor discipline.
Although what I said was true, I am upset that I got mad over another person's hypocrisy. What is some advice you can give about how to handle this anger in line with the Dhamma?
Why are you responding in anger? Why not wait until you've calmed down and can respond with kindness and compassion?
- Wizard in the Forest
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Re: When someone asks what it takes to become a Buddhist...
Good question. Yes, some of it is certainly true, what was said in anger was not.andre9999 wrote:Firstly, I'd ask if what you said really is true?
This was the lie, but it doesn't mean I didn't think it.Is the person a "monster"?
That is undeniably true.Are the person's assumptions arrogant?
Because they believe it is within their right to measure others using themselves as a standard in order to determine what makes them "Ready" as opposed to "not ready" to practice the Dhamma.What makes you so sure?
Hypocrisy makes me angry.Why are you responding in anger?
It is better to address it in a timely manner and not just until I feel like it's "okay" with me.Why not wait until you've calmed down and can respond with kindness and compassion?
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir
Re: When someone asks what it takes to become a Buddhist...
Take refuge to become buddhist...isn't that a bit like saying "in order to become a buddhist, you have to become a buddhist"? Truth can be told in an untimely or non-beneficial way.Wizard in the Forest wrote:I was told by a person (who doesn't really like me) that, "In imparting the Dharma, we need to develop skill and means. The capability/aptitude of the listener/questioner should be the springboard.
When a newbie claims naive to Buddha Dharma should ask what they should do to become a Buddhist, suggesting to take Refuge and the Precepts is definitely unskillful."
I don't see how refuge is even possible as a very first step, without exposure to some of the teachings and goals, or having personal contact with a practitioner you trust fully fully.
My first exposure to buddhism was a Goenka retreat, and the refuge at the start was really stressful for me. I couldn't do it honestly, and considered leaving right then since I couldn't follow even this first instruction. Luckily I already had the "black-stone"-tossing attitude before Goenka gave that lesson.
Refuge is necessary--the sooner the better--it just doesn't work as a stand-alone instruction, which maybe this character thought you had intended.
- Goofaholix
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Re: When someone asks what it takes to become a Buddhist...
Don't become a Buddhist, don't become anything.
I found my way without anybody telling me "to be a Buddhist you must do this or that", I think probably most of us did, it's unnecessary.
I found my way without anybody telling me "to be a Buddhist you must do this or that", I think probably most of us did, it's unnecessary.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Re: When someone asks what it takes to become a Buddhist...
Really ?Goofaholix wrote:Don't become a Buddhist, don't become anything.
I found my way without anybody telling me "to be a Buddhist you must do this or that", I think probably most of us did, it's unnecessary.
You found your way ? I see little sign of that frankly.
I dont think many of us on this forum have done that and that we all need all the help we can get.
- Goofaholix
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Re: When someone asks what it takes to become a Buddhist...
Of course I had help.PeterB wrote: Really ?
You found your way ? I see little sign of that frankly.
I dont think many of us on this forum have done that and that we all need all the help we can get.
My point was nobody stood over me telling me I needed to have some kind of conversion experience or needed to fulfil a minimum criteria.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Re: When someone asks what it takes to become a Buddhist...
Perhaps that is to your disadvantage. I think an ongoing conversion experience is of the essence, and that in terms of effort there is a clearly defined minimum which most of us are still working to achieve. And that we should avail ourselves of every life line thrown to us by the Triple Gem.
- Goofaholix
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Re: When someone asks what it takes to become a Buddhist...
I agree, and this is something that comes from within, not as a result of chanting a formula, or joining a club, or reciting a creed, or other people telling you what to do.PeterB wrote: I think an ongoing conversion experience is of the essence, and that in terms of effort there is a clearly defined minimum which most of us are still working to achieve.
Telling people it's all about taking refuge negates the importance of following the path as a process in my opinion.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Re: When someone asks what it takes to become a Buddhist...
In the experience of many chanting the Precepts and Refuges are a prime way of tapping into our inner resources.
Left to our own devises none of us would discover for ourselves what the Buddha discovered .
A willingness to be told what what to do by others who have demonstrated that they know what they are doing is a sign of maturity .
Left to our own devises none of us would discover for ourselves what the Buddha discovered .
A willingness to be told what what to do by others who have demonstrated that they know what they are doing is a sign of maturity .
- Goofaholix
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Re: When someone asks what it takes to become a Buddhist...
I can't say it's done much for me, but I do it anyway.PeterB wrote:In the experience of many chanting the Precepts and Refuges are a prime way of tapping into our inner resources.
Indeed, and all my teachers emphasis meditation practices, morality, and the development of wisdom and I find the topic of taking refuge is hardly mentioned beyond it being a ritual you sometimes do. It's the attitude of heart and the consistant attendance to practise that is emphasised not allegiance to a creed. So I'll follow they know what they are doing if you don't mind.PeterB wrote: Left to our own devises none of us would discover for ourselves what the Buddha discovered .
A willingness to be told what what to do by others who have demonstrated that they know what they are doing is a sign of maturity .
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Re: When someone asks what it takes to become a Buddhist...
In the words of my teacher: Just observe!Wizard in the Forest wrote:What is some advice you can give about how to handle this anger in line with the Dhamma?
However, anger on its own is extremely difficult to observe without rolling in the anger as you ruminate over the anger-inducing incident. Instead, avert your mind to a body process, the breath, and just observe the breath at the point where the breath enters and leaves the body (at the nostrils). When your mind becomes agitated, your breath becomes agitated. By averting your mind to your breath, one of the first things to occur is that your mind becomes less agitated - and that is also reflected in your breath. The second thing that happens, if you are practicing the samatha variation of anapana, is that you begin to develop some concentration and calm. You begin to develop the ability to exert conscious control over your mind and wrest it from the powerful unconscious patterns of habitual reaction.
kind regards
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..