Thanks for the link Chris, That thread as I read it comes from a different angle i.e, A Mahayanist looking for commonality, I was rather interested in any support for the idea of Interbeing from the POV of the Canon.
Interbeing ?
Re: Interbeing ?
Just rummaging around, looking for cluesPeterB wrote:Thanks for the link Chris, That thread as I read it comes from a different angle i.e, A Mahayanist looking for commonality, I was rather interested in any support for the idea of Interbeing from the POV of the Canon.
Thanissaro Bhikkhu has a little to say on his understanding of the concept - inter-eating:
As for discernment: When the mind is strengthened with the food of good concentration, it can begin contemplating the drawbacks of having to feed. This is the part of the Buddha's teaching that — for many of us — goes most directly against the grain, because feeding, in every sense of the word, is our primary way of relating to and enjoying the world around us. Our most cherished sense of inter-connectedness with the world — what some people call our interbeing — is, at its most basic level, inter-eating. We feed on others, and they feed on us. Sometimes our relationships are mutually nourishing, sometimes not, but either way it's hard to imagine any lasting relationship where some kind of physical or mental nourishment wasn't being consumed. At the same time, feeding is the activity in which we experience the most intimate sense of ourselves. We define ourselves through the pleasures, people, ideas, and activities we keep returning to for nourishment.
So it's hard for us to imagine a world, any possibility of enjoyment — even our very self — where we wouldn't inter-eat. Our common resistance to the idea of no longer feeding — one of the Buddha's most radically uncommon teachings — comes largely from a failure of the imagination. We can hardly conceive of what he's trying to tell us. So he has to prescribe some strong medicine to jog our minds into new perspectives.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... tains.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
Re: Interbeing ?
Hi Peter,
kind regards
Ben
I am no Pali scholar, but I have not seen the term 'interbeing' or anything like it, or even 'interdependent origination' appear in the literature (canonical, commentarial, and later scholastic writings consistent with the classical Thv pov) that I have read. Sorry I can't be much more help!PeterB wrote:Ok its not subtle guys. I suspect that the "Interbeing" concept is an innovation that has no pedigree within the teachings of the Buddha.
I think it was invented. No doubt its inventor had good intentions, but we know what is paved with good intentions dont we.
I think it has actually become a barrier to understanding D.O.
I would like those with more knowledge of the Pali Canon than me to show me whether my thoughts on the matter are in accord with theirs.
And to show mw me either way from the Classical theravadin POV.
kind regards
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
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- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- retrofuturist
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Re: Interbeing ?
Greetings,
My readings mirror Ben's and I do not believe the example provided earlier by kirk5 on this/that conditionality correlates with interbeing either.
The main difference is that in Classical Theravada, dependent origination applies only to a single life-continuum. Interbeing is a bit more like the butterfly effect - therefore, vastly different.
Metta,
Retro.
My readings mirror Ben's and I do not believe the example provided earlier by kirk5 on this/that conditionality correlates with interbeing either.
The main difference is that in Classical Theravada, dependent origination applies only to a single life-continuum. Interbeing is a bit more like the butterfly effect - therefore, vastly different.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Interbeing ?
I've always felt that Anguttara VIII,39 with its teaching that when one abstains from breaking the precepts one "gives to immeasurable beings freedom from fear, freedom from hostility, freedom from oppression...and by giving to immeasurable beings freedom from fear, hostility and oppression, he himself will enjoy immeasurable freedom from fear, hostility and oppression" suggests a kind of interbeingness, and I find that reflecting on this teaching is one of them most powerful conditioning factors that I personally know for abstention. But I could easily be misinterpreting the sutta.
http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=N7zC ... &q&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=N7zC ... &q&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
Re: Interbeing ?
Straight lines parallel to the same straight line are also parallel to one another.
Theravadins can observe sunshine, rain, and crop growth, and speak about them in dhamma talks, hopefully for some greater purpose.
"This being so, that is..." is an interbeing-chain-bare-bones-D.O., and the '12-link' interbeing-chain-one-life-many-life-literal-yada-D.O. is one specific example--the one that buddha was most concerned with.
Nidana Sutta: "Just as when seeds are not broken, not rotten, not damaged by wind & heat, capable of sprouting, well-buried, planted in well-prepared soil, and the rain-god would offer good streams of rain; those seeds would thus come to growth, increase, & abundance..." hold on...none of that is Theravadin why?
Theravadins can observe sunshine, rain, and crop growth, and speak about them in dhamma talks, hopefully for some greater purpose.
"This being so, that is..." is an interbeing-chain-bare-bones-D.O., and the '12-link' interbeing-chain-one-life-many-life-literal-yada-D.O. is one specific example--the one that buddha was most concerned with.
Nidana Sutta: "Just as when seeds are not broken, not rotten, not damaged by wind & heat, capable of sprouting, well-buried, planted in well-prepared soil, and the rain-god would offer good streams of rain; those seeds would thus come to growth, increase, & abundance..." hold on...none of that is Theravadin why?
Re: Interbeing ?
It IS Theravadin. What is perhaps less so is the idea that the Nidanas reduce to some a priori shining cosmic custard that constitutes our "real nature"...
Re: Interbeing ?
Which, Peter?PeterB wrote:
I think it dilutes a radical aspect of the Buddhas teaching.
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Re: Interbeing ?
I think that's right. I spent some time with Tich Naht Han sangha and as I recall it, "interbeing" is an expression of sunyata.retrofuturist wrote:The main difference is that in Classical Theravada, dependent origination applies only to a single life-continuum. Interbeing is a bit more like the butterfly effect - therefore, vastly different.
Spiny
Re: Interbeing ?
Interbeing custard, that's all there is man, when you look at it that way, like wow we are really all one.
That's my diluted vague birds eye interbeing-D.O. that never quite gets around to how the 12-link interbeing-chain works. Buddha went deep into like the cornflour and everything he was so awesome and I know that's what you were getting at, P.
Oh yes Spiny EMPTINESS yes I didn't have the balls to say it before cuz I thought no one wanted to hear it.
Interbeing is an expression of sunyata!... (googlegoogle) Nagarjuna agrees.
-------
PS
of sunyata, not necessarily the TNH mahayana take sunyata
That's my diluted vague birds eye interbeing-D.O. that never quite gets around to how the 12-link interbeing-chain works. Buddha went deep into like the cornflour and everything he was so awesome and I know that's what you were getting at, P.
Oh yes Spiny EMPTINESS yes I didn't have the balls to say it before cuz I thought no one wanted to hear it.
Interbeing is an expression of sunyata!... (googlegoogle) Nagarjuna agrees.
-------
PS
of sunyata, not necessarily the TNH mahayana take sunyata
Last edited by lojong1 on Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Interbeing ?
Anatta....which is diluted by the Mahayana take on Sunyata as exemplified in TNH's teaching...there may be other takes on Sunyata that arise from a different view. It is noticeable for example that many Vajrayana teachers, whose view of the Buddhas teachings feature Sunyata strongly, are as uncomfortable with TNH as are some Theravadins.Annapurna wrote:Which, Peter?PeterB wrote:
I think it dilutes a radical aspect of the Buddhas teaching.
Re: Interbeing ?
"Oh yes Spiny EMPTINESS yes I didn't have the balls to say it before cuz I thought no one wanted to hear it.
Interbeing is an expression of sunyata!... (googlegoogle) Nagarjuna agrees.[/quote] "
I doubt that any Theravadin would disagree, and that is WHY they are Theravadin practitioners, not Mahayana practitioners.
If after due consideration we bought into the whole Sunyata thing we would embrace the Mahayana, presumably.
I stopped being a Vajrayana practitioner when it became clear that The Buddhas teaching had no such component.
Interbeing is an expression of sunyata!... (googlegoogle) Nagarjuna agrees.[/quote] "
I doubt that any Theravadin would disagree, and that is WHY they are Theravadin practitioners, not Mahayana practitioners.
If after due consideration we bought into the whole Sunyata thing we would embrace the Mahayana, presumably.
I stopped being a Vajrayana practitioner when it became clear that The Buddhas teaching had no such component.
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Re: Interbeing ?
What is it about sunyata that you don't like?PeterB wrote:If after due consideration we bought into the whole Sunyata thing we would embrace the Mahayana, presumably.
I stopped being a Vajrayana practitioner when it became clear that The Buddhas teaching had no such component.
Spiny
Re: Interbeing ?
You mean apart from the fact that it bears no relationship to anything found in the teachings of the Buddha as found in the Pali Canon ?
I dont like or dislike it. Any more than I like or dislike Transubstantiation or The Book or Mormon, they just have nothing to do with Buddha Dhamma.
I dont like or dislike it. Any more than I like or dislike Transubstantiation or The Book or Mormon, they just have nothing to do with Buddha Dhamma.