Interbeing ?

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Re: Interbeing ?

Postby lojong1 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:53 pm

Interbeing custard, that's all there is man, when you look at it that way, like wow we are really all one.
That's my diluted vague birds eye interbeing-D.O. that never quite gets around to how the 12-link interbeing-chain works. Buddha went deep into like the cornflour and everything he was so awesome :namaste: and I know that's what you were getting at, P.

Oh yes Spiny EMPTINESS yes I didn't have the balls to say it before cuz I thought no one wanted to hear it.
Interbeing is an expression of sunyata!... (googlegoogle) Nagarjuna agrees.

-------
PS
of sunyata, not necessarily the TNH mahayana take sunyata
Last edited by lojong1 on Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Interbeing ?

Postby PeterB » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:57 pm

Annapurna wrote:
PeterB wrote:
I think it dilutes a radical aspect of the Buddhas teaching.


Which, Peter?

Anatta....which is diluted by the Mahayana take on Sunyata as exemplified in TNH's teaching...there may be other takes on Sunyata that arise from a different view. It is noticeable for example that many Vajrayana teachers, whose view of the Buddhas teachings feature Sunyata strongly, are as uncomfortable with TNH as are some Theravadins.
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Re: Interbeing ?

Postby PeterB » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:26 pm

"Oh yes Spiny EMPTINESS yes I didn't have the balls to say it before cuz I thought no one wanted to hear it.
Interbeing is an expression of sunyata!... (googlegoogle) Nagarjuna agrees.[/quote] "




I doubt that any Theravadin would disagree, and that is WHY they are Theravadin practitioners, not Mahayana practitioners.
If after due consideration we bought into the whole Sunyata thing we would embrace the Mahayana, presumably.
I stopped being a Vajrayana practitioner when it became clear that The Buddhas teaching had no such component.
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Re: Interbeing ?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:46 pm

PeterB wrote:If after due consideration we bought into the whole Sunyata thing we would embrace the Mahayana, presumably.
I stopped being a Vajrayana practitioner when it became clear that The Buddhas teaching had no such component.


What is it about sunyata that you don't like?

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Re: Interbeing ?

Postby PeterB » Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:00 pm

You mean apart from the fact that it bears no relationship to anything found in the teachings of the Buddha as found in the Pali Canon ?

I dont like or dislike it. Any more than I like or dislike Transubstantiation or The Book or Mormon, they just have nothing to do with Buddha Dhamma.
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Re: Interbeing ?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:31 pm

PeterB wrote:You mean apart from the fact that it bears no relationship to anything found in the teachings of the Buddha as found in the Pali Canon ?



This might be of interest - it's from the Buddhist dictionary on Buddhanet ( Ven Nyanatiloka )

suñña (adj.), suññatā (noun):
void (ness), empty (emptiness). As a doctrinal term it refers, in Theravāda, exclusively to the anattā doctrine,.i.e. the unsubstantiality of all phenomena: "Void is the world ... because it is void of a self and anything belonging to a self" (suññaṃ attena vā attaniyena vā; S. XXXV, 85); also stated of the 5 groups of existence (khandha, q.v.) in the same text.
See also M. 43, M. 106. - In CNidd. (quoted in Vis.M. XXI, 55), it is said: "Eye ... mind, visual objects ... mind-objects, visual consciousness ... mind-consciousness, corporeality ... consciousness, etc., are void of self and anything belonging to a self; void of permanency and of anything lasting, eternal or immutable.. They are coreless: without a core of permanency, or core of happiness or core of self." - In M. 121, the voiding of the mind of the cankers, in the attainment of Arahatship, is regarded as the "fully purified and incomparably highest (concept of) voidness. - See Sn. v. 1119; M. 121; M. 122 (WHEEL 87); Pts.M. II: Suñña-kathā; Vis.M. XXI, 53ff.

suññatānupassanā: 'contemplation of emptiness' (s. prec.), is one of the 18 chief kinds of insight (vipassanā, q.v.). Cf. Vis.M. XXI.
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Re: Interbeing ?

Postby PeterB » Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:41 pm

The Pali/Theravada concept of sunna bears little in common with the Sanskrit/ Mahayana concept of Sunyata...of Emptiness with a capital " E".
The former is an expression of Anatta. The latter is not.

Unless of course you can demonstrate within the clear guidelines for this Classical Theravada forum something different ?
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Re: Interbeing ?

Postby lojong1 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:42 pm

OP:
PeterB wrote:From the POV of Classical Theravada can we discern a concept in the Pali Canon that could be rendered as " Interbeing" ?

Concept in the Pali Canon: Lots of empty (small 'e') little anattas running around anicca rupa dependently originating.
Rendering of concept: interbeing
Answer: yes
Boy do I feel useless today.
(Buddhadasa Bhikkhu teaches sunyata in 'Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree'?)
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Re: Interbeing ?

Postby PeterB » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:56 pm

:strawman: :strawman: :strawman:
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Re: Interbeing ?

Postby lojong1 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:01 pm

It's not a Theravada concept?, or you can demonstrate that I'm just not allowed that rendering?
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Re: Interbeing ?

Postby lojong1 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:12 pm

Is the OP even a position that can be strawmanned? I ignored TNH and capital 'E's because they aren't there.
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Re: Interbeing ?

Postby PeterB » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:17 pm

I suggest Lojong that you take a wee peep at the Classical Theravada Forum guidelines.
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Re: Interbeing ?

Postby adeh » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:26 am

Bhikku Sujato translated these three Sutras on Emptiness from Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit into Pali and English...they are from the Samyukta Agama and two of them have no equivalents in the Pali Nikayas....hope the link works...Adeh.
http://santifm1.0.googlepages.com/Three ... Sutras.pdf
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Re: Interbeing ?

Postby Ben » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:14 am

Dear members

This is a reminder that the focus of this forum is for the understanding of the Classical (Mahaviharan) Theravada. Replies to the OP which do not provide the Classical pov are considered off-topic and liable to be removed. This means that one's own interpretation of a text/s, meditative experiences, conjecture, conversations with devas are considered off-topic. Please review the guidelines for the Classical and Abhidhamma sub-fora.
As a final note, this message is directed at all members as a reminder and is not directed at Adeh as the person responsible for the post directly preceeding this one.
Thanks for your cooperation.

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Re: Interbeing ?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:20 pm

PeterB wrote:The Pali/Theravada concept of sunna bears little in common with the Sanskrit/ Mahayana concept of Sunyata...of Emptiness with a capital " E".
The former is an expression of Anatta. The latter is not.


I'm not sure I agree. However it seems this issue isn't appropriate for debate here.

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Re: Interbeing ?

Postby PeterB » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:14 pm

Surely the answer lies in the very fact that it is not considered a suitable subject for this forum...why is it not ?

There are as I see it a limited number of options here...either the Buddha can be shown from Pali Canon sources to have taught Sunyata, or such teachings cannot be demonstrared to exist within the Pali Canon, in which case we must assume that Sunyata is either a later development which is not found in the Buddhas teaching... Or that he somehow overlooked it, or neglected to teach it.

Before anyone is tempted to quote the passage about the "handful of leaves"....I am asking if the concept of Sunyata can be demonstrated from Pali sources.
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Re: Interbeing ?

Postby kirk5a » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:43 pm

How about Phena Sutta: Foam. Doesn't that get close? It's not just "empty of self" here - the object of observation is regarded as "void".

"In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any form that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in form?"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Interbeing ?

Postby adeh » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:00 pm

or the Suñña Sutta (SN 35-.85) which would appear to be the Pali equivalent of the first of the Emptiness Sutras I posted above:
..Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "It is said that the world is empty, the world is empty, lord. In what respect is it said that the world is empty?"

"Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty. And what is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self? The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Forms... Eye-consciousness... Eye-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self.

"The ear is empty...

"The nose is empty...

"The tongue is empty...

"The body is empty...

"The intellect is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Ideas... Intellect-consciousness... Intellect-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Thus it is said that the world is empty.''
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Re: Interbeing ?

Postby PeterB » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:07 pm

Fine....now how does that equate to the doctrine of Sunyata ?
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Re: Interbeing ?

Postby adeh » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:09 pm

Well Suttas such as this obviously served as an inspiration for what later became the doctrine of emptiness....
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