Moderator: Mahavihara moderator
sukhamanveti wrote:I am interested to know how Buddhagosha divides the qualities or titles in chapter 7 of the Visuddhimagga (a book I do not yet own) or what number the commentaries give.
Dhammanando wrote:Hi Green,
I don’t know anything about the origin of the gāthā that you quote. But in any case, that anuttaro purisadammasārathi is a single quality (as stated in the Visuddhimagga), with the first word qualifying the second, can be plainly seen in the Suttas. For example:“Among the teachers of training it is he that is called ‘the incomparable leader of persons to be tamed.’ So it was said. And with reference to what was this said?
“Guided by the elephant tamer, bhikkhus, the elephant to be tamed goes in one direction - east, west, north, or south. Guided by the horse tamer, bhikkhus, the horse to be tamed goes in one direction – east, west, north, or south. Guided by the ox tamer, bhikkhus, the ox to be tamed goes in one direction – east, west, north, or south.
“Bhikkhus, guided by the Tathāgata, accomplished and fully enlightened, the person to be tamed goes in eight directions.
“Possessed of material form, he sees forms: this is the first direction.
“Not perceiving forms internally, he sees forms externally: this is the second direction.
“He is resolved only upon the beautiful: this is the third direction.
“With the complete surmounting of perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of sensory impact, with non-attention to perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite,’ he enters upon and abides in the base of infinite space: this is the fourth direction.
“By completely surmounting the base of infinite space, aware that ‘consciousness is infinite,’ he enters upon and abides in the base of infinite consciousness: this is the fifth direction.
“By completely surmounting the base of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing,’ he enters upon and abides in the base of nothingness: this is the sixth direction.
“By completely surmounting the base of nothingness, he enters upon and abides in the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception: this is the seventh direction.
“By completely surmounting the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he enters upon and abides in the cessation of perception and feeling: this is the eighth direction.
“Bhikkhus, guided by the Tathāgata, accomplished and fully enlightened, the person to be tamed goes in these eight directions.
“So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘Among the teachers of training it is he that is called the incomparable leader of persons to be tamed.’”
(Saḷāyatanavibhanga Sutta, MN. 137)
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Bhante for the sutta, and Sukhamanveti for the question.green wrote:So where are these gathas coming from? Are they non-canonical?
Where does the Narasiha Gatha come from, btw
Dhammanando wrote:Hi Green,green wrote:So where are these gathas coming from? Are they non-canonical?
I don't know about the precise origin of the Nava Guna verses, but in every Theravada country there are lots of non-canonical verses that have been composed as parittas or for devotional chanting.Where does the Narasiha Gatha come from, btw
It consists of verses taken from the Nidānakathā, the introductory section to the Jātaka Atthakathā.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
green wrote:So is the Narsiha Gatha considered canonical? The words of a true Theri?
Dhammanando wrote:Hi Green,green wrote:So is the Narsiha Gatha considered canonical? The words of a true Theri?
The word "canonical" is used by most people to refer to the "root texts" (mūla-pāḷi), meaning the Tipiṭaka. The Narasīhagāthā are from an atthakathā and so would be termed "commentarial". In the classical Theravāda classification atthakathā is the third of the four sources of the Dhamma:
1. Sutta: the three baskets of the Tipiṭaka.
2. Suttānuloma: a direct inference from the Tipiṭaka.
3. Atthakathā: a commentary.
4. Attanomati: the personal opinions of later generations of teachers.
In this scheme sutta is viewed as the most reliable source of authority and attanomati the least so.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu

Registered users: amata_dhamma, Ben, Bhikkhu Pesala, Bhikkhu_Samahita, Billymac29, Bing [Bot], BuddhaSoup, Coyote, Dmytro, EmptyShadow, enlightened2013, Feathers, gavesako, Google [Bot], Khalil Bodhi, kiwi, kmath, Lazy_eye, Majestic-12 [Bot], mettafuture, Mindstar, Modus.Ponens, piotr