Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

rowyourboat wrote: The suttas often say that without samadhi there can be no insight- so it follows that when a person is mindful (satipattana) both concentration can and must develop.
I think you're right, but I'm still trying to get to grips with the relationship between sati and samadhi from a practical point of view. :smile:

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Post by starter »

Hi Teachers/Friends,

I'm reading Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta again and have just noticed that mindfulness and clear comprehension of postures and daily activities should all be accompanied by contemplating anicca (their arising and passing away) and by inferring this body to other bodies.

I'm still a bit puzzled by the sentence:

"Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance.".

It seems to mean we should always maintain a fine sense of whole body awareness?


Metta,

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meindzai
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Post by meindzai »

The anapanasati Sutta is a pretty straightforward meditation Sutta. Not that most people are capable of doing all 16 aspects of it with complete depth, but it's not impossible. It is a good Sutta to base your sitting meditation on.

It's been surmised that the Satipatthana Sutta may be a hammered together collection of teachings and not really a Sutta that was ever delivered all in one sermon. It really does not give any kind of systematic way of practicing. It is a long list of many different factors and teachings. Some of the practices require sitting meditation, some of them are things to pay attention to in daily life, and some are the lists of the teachings themselves (like the eightfold path, the seven factors of awakening, the five hindrances). There's just a *lot* of stuff in there. So I don't really consider it a meditation sutta.

If you try to practice the whole Satipatthana Sutta and pay attention to every listed factor every single day you will lose your mind. You simply cannot go through your day watching all the postures, all of your actions, all of your hindrances, contemplating the eightfold path, four noble truths, the four elements, seven factors of awakening, concentrating on your breath and doing cemetery contemplations.

Any meditation or contemplation-in-action from the Satipatthana Sutta is going to be something that you choose or something that you develop over time. Many of the practices are prescriptive or useful for people with certain predispositions. A lot of the vipassana practices out there are *based* on the satipatthana Sutta but they necessarily exclude things from it.

-M
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adeh
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Post by adeh »

You may find this book of interest---Adeh

http://santipada.org/aswiftpairofmessengers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
daverupa
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Post by daverupa »

adeh wrote:You may find this book of interest---Adeh

http://santipada.org/aswiftpairofmessengers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A quick summary of another work by the author of that work; snippets pertinent to this discussion follow:

"Modern teachings on mindfulness are almost exclusively derived from a peculiar 20th century interpretation of one text, the Pali Satipatthana Sutta. This doctrine, the vipassanavada, says that satipatthana is a practice of ‘dry insight’, where the meditator, without previous practice of tranquility meditation, is ‘mindful’ of the changing phenomena of experience. This alone is sufficient to realize enlightenment. When we carefully consider the range of teachings found in early Buddhist texts on mindfulness, it becomes clear that this doctrine does not hold up."

"Satipatthana is the ‘contemplation’ (anupassana) of body, feelings, mind, and principles (dhammas). ‘Anupassana’ means ‘sustained watching’. It is an awareness that stays on one thing and doesn’t jump from object to object. For this reason satipatthana is said to be the ‘way to convergence’, ekayana magga."

"The main practice of satipatthana is breath meditation, anapanasati. One focusses on the breath, keeping awareness there, continually ‘remembering’ the breath. As the physical breath becomes tranquil, one moves from body contemplation to the awareness of the subtle feelings of bliss and rapture that arise in the breath. The mind becomes purified. Finally one reflects on how the whole process is impermanent and conditioned; this is contemplation of dhammas (‘principles’). There are many other types of meditation that can be classified as satipatthana, but all of them follow a similar course."

"One of the additions is the inclusion of the awareness of postures and daily activities among its meditation exercizes. The awareness of postures is, in every other text, part of the preparation for meditation, not a kind of meditation itself."

"Another late addition to the Pali Satipatthana Sutta is a ‘refrain’ following each meditation, which says one practices contemplating ‘rise and fall’. This is a vipassana practice, which originally belonged to only the final of the four satipatthanas, contemplation of dhammas."

"Each version of the Satipatthana Sutta is based on a shared ancestor, which has been expanded in different ways by the schools. This process continued for several centuries following the Buddha’s death. Of the texts we have today, the closest to the ancestral version is that contained in the Pali Abhidhamma Vibhanga, if we leave aside the Abhidhammic elaborations."

"Tracing the development of texts on satipatthana in later Buddhism, there is a gradual tendency to emphasize the vipassana aspect at the expense of the samatha side. This happened across various schools, although there is some variation from text to text, and perhaps some differences in sectarian emphasis. This led to various contradictions and problems in interpretation."
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
rowyourboat
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Post by rowyourboat »

Is there any evidence that other versions of the satiptthana sutta don't have the refrain after each method?

With metta

Matheesha
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daverupa
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Post by daverupa »

rowyourboat wrote:Is there any evidence that other versions of the satiptthana sutta don't have the refrain after each method?
In short, yes, although I expect it isn't a smoking gun so much as an argument with merits. Read the book to discern the evidence, as laid out by the author, for yourself. It's free, and you'll want to have a look at chapter 14, in particular page 166.

copy/paste >>> santifm1.0.googlepages.com/webmind.pdf <<< to download it.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Post by starter »

The early version of Chinese Agama has only "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself" (the same applies to the feeling/mind/Dhammas).

This part "Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself" is absent in all the relevant paragraphs in Chinese Agama. Even without these exercises, one could still become an arahat or anagami within one day by doing the rest of the exercises accoring to Agama sutta.

Metta,

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Post by starter »

I studied again the Chinese Agama suttas equivalent to Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta. In these two early suttas, Step 3 clearly means "discerning the formations/movements of the whole body, breathe in/out", and step 4 apprarently means "discerning the stillness of the formations/movements of the whole body, breathe in/out". Therefore the "bodily fabrication" and "the entire body" doesn't really mean the breath itself, but the formations/movements of the whole body involved in breathing. Then the focus of the mindfulness appears to be the body itself, instead of the breath.

Here are the Chinese paragraphs:

复次。比丘观身如身。比丘者。念入息即知念入息。念出息即知念出息。入息长即知入息长。出息长即知出息长。入息短即知入息短。出息短即知出息短。学一切身 息入。觉一切身 息出。学止身行息入。学止身行息出。如是比丘观内身如身。观外身如身。立念在身。有知有见。有明有达。是谓比丘观身如身
[中阿含经第98经 念处经]

"... 聖弟子入息念時,如入息念學;出息念時,如出息念學:若長、若短、一切身行覺知、入息念時,如[身行覺知]入息念學;出息念時,如[身行覺知]出息念學、身行休息、入息念時,如身行休息入息念學;身行休息出息念時,如身行休息出息念學,聖弟子爾時身身觀念住,異於身者,彼亦如是隨身比思惟。"
[雜阿含810經]
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

meindzai wrote:If you try to practice the whole Satipatthana Sutta and pay attention to every listed factor every single day you will lose your mind. You simply cannot go through your day watching all the postures, all of your actions, all of your hindrances, contemplating the eightfold path, four noble truths, the four elements, seven factors of awakening, concentrating on your breath and doing cemetery contemplations.

I agree. It seems to me that the Satipatthana Sutta is a "toolbox" containing a wide range of subjects for mindfulness and contemplation.

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rowyourboat
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi starter,

I have taken it to mean the breath because of the following bit from the sutta itself:

"On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world."

To me this is the strongest academic/literrary reason for it. The logical reason is that if a person becomes externally focused as a result of focusing on bodily sensations, then attaining jhana will not be possible or very difficult in any case, as that requires an inward focus. The experiential reason is because I can say that when the breath becomes short it is easier to then focus on the 'whole body' of the breath and subsequently stop the 'bodily fabrication' (I would like to see a body awareness do that immediately afterwards) by the temporary cessation of the breath.

With metta

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Post by starter »

Hi Matheesha,

BB's translation is "the in-&-out breathing (not breath) — is classed as a body among bodies ...". The breathing is the bodily formation/movements, while the breath is the air coming in and out of nostril. Breathing (e.g. the up and down movements of the chest or belly or the whole body) is not really just a changeable bodily sensation, and is as stable as the breath. I'd consider breathing as the internal activity of the body, and breath in/out of the nostril as something external instead. In particular, by attending to the bodily movements and their stilling instead of the breath, it won't be an abrupt switch of the meditation object/attention from the breath to the body awareness, when the breathing becomes undetectable; so it should be better for jhana.

Now the sentence "Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance" (the body awareness) really makes sense to me, together with the whole picture. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Metta,

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rowyourboat
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Post by rowyourboat »

Starter,

With regards to internal/external as I meant in my post: a certain depth of samadhi needs to be reached to recognize the term the way I meant it, rather than give it abstract theoretical meaning as I see you have done.

When the breath stops you are about 30% of the way to the first jhana. There is a lot more work to be done. Time to knuckle down and do it. This is not a class project you finish in a couple of weeks. This is the project to end all projects- it will take a lifetime. Are you mentally prepared for it?

Viriya that knows no bounds. A life devoted. A quest to end all quests.

with metta

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Kenshou
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Post by Kenshou »

When the breath stops you are about 30% of the way to the first jhana.
Source?

I've only seen the stopping of the breath in reference to the 4th jhana, for example in this sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Post by rowyourboat »

Kenshou wrote:
When the breath stops you are about 30% of the way to the first jhana.
Source?

I've only seen the stopping of the breath in reference to the 4th jhana, for example in this sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Well, my source is the Anapanasati sutta itself!

..and my experience.

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Matheesha
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