Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

[starter]

Hello, Teachers/Friends,

I just listened to an interesting Dhamma talk, in which seeing anatta in physical body and other physical forms is considered as seeing the ultimate truth to liberation. This alone led to the attainment of the path and fruit of stream entry (to my understanding). But how about anatta in nama (the mental aspects of the 5 aggregates including feeling, perception, volitions, consciousness)? Would someone consider the body as anatta but still consider the consciousness as atta be able to enter the stream or obtain the fruit? It seems to me not ...

Metta,

Starter

[Goofaholix]

I just listened to an interesting Dhamma talk, in which seeing anatta in physical body and other physical forms is considered as seeing the ultimate truth. This alone led to the attainment of the path and fruit of stream entry (to my understanding). But how about anatta in nama (the mental aspects of the 5 aggregates including feeling, perception, volitions, consciousness)? Would someone consider the body as anatta but still consider the consciousness as atta be able to enter the stream or obtain the fruit? It seems to me not ...

I think you've misinterpreted the talk.

Seeing anatta in the body would be seeing the ultimate truth about the body.

Seeing anatta in mental objects would be seeing the ultimate truth about mental objects.

[mlswe]

edit: should speak less practice more

[mlswe]

.

[Goofaholix]

that is self-view. there arent bodies or mental objects, they are concepts containing subtrata and are conditioned. You see the truth in regards to the body not about it. And I find calling mental objects dhammic categories helps clarification.

You're hair splitting here.

My explanation was adequate to illustrate the difference between the OP's interpretation of the talk and what I suspect was really meant. My explanation wasn't intended as a copmplete existential categorisation.

[mlswe]

.

[Goofaholix]

and one half of that straw of hair is dhamma, and the other is not

The Dhamma is subtle hard to see, hairs can be crucial

As someone who has lost most of his I beg to differ.

[starter]

Hi Friends, come on ... Let's stop "fighting" each other. My point was:

"... seeing anatta in physical body and other physical forms is considered as seeing the ultimate truth [to liberation]. This alone led to the attainment of the path and fruit of stream entry (to my understanding of the talk). But how about anatta in nama (the mental aspects of the 5 aggregates including feeling, perception, volitions, consciousness)? Would someone consider the body as anatta but still consider the consciousness as atta be able to enter the stream or obtain the fruit? It seems to me not ..."

[Goofaholix]

Hi Friends, come on ... Let's stop "fighting" each other. My point was:

"... seeing anatta in physical body and other physical forms is considered as seeing the ultimate truth [to liberation]. This alone led to the attainment of the path and fruit of stream entry (to my understanding of the talk). But how about anatta in nama (the mental aspects of the 5 aggregates including feeling, perception, volitions, consciousness)? Would someone consider the body as anatta but still consider the consciousness as atta be able to enter the stream or obtain the fruit? It seems to me not ..."

It seems to me not also.

[Ben]

Hi Starter,

Hi Friends, come on ... Let's stop "fighting" each other. My point was:

"... seeing anatta in physical body and other physical forms is considered as seeing the ultimate truth [to liberation]. This alone led to the attainment of the path and fruit of stream entry (to my understanding of the talk). But how about anatta in nama (the mental aspects of the 5 aggregates including feeling, perception, volitions, consciousness)? Would someone consider the body as anatta but still consider the consciousness as atta be able to enter the stream or obtain the fruit? It seems to me not ..."

Perhaps it is my perspective, but, if someone has seen anatta in rupa, then the person in question is not likely to see atta in any of the other khandhas. Also, keep in mind that realization of anatta is quite an advanced insight. Most practitioners should be kept pretty busy by focusing on developing annica-vijja (insight into impermanence/wisdom of impermanence) for quite a while.
kind regards

Ben

[starter]

"... if someone has seen anatta in rupa, then the person in question is not likely to see atta in any of the other khandhas".

-- I'm afraid not always. One can more easily see anatta in body than in mind ...

[Ben]

"... if someone has seen anatta in rupa, then the person in question is not likely to see atta in any of the other khandhas".

-- I'm afraid not always. One can more easily see anatta in body than in mind ...

I would like to know how you came to that contention.
Thanks

Ben

[Alex123]

Hi Starter,
Perhaps it is my perspective, but, if someone has seen anatta in rupa, then the person in question is not likely to see atta in any of the other khandhas.

This doesn't seem right. There are people who may consider the consciousness, mind or "spirit" to be the Self, and not this fleshy body.

"Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted with this body composed of the four great elements, might grow dispassionate toward it, might gain release from it. Why is that? Because the growth & decline, the taking up & putting down of this body composed of the four great elements are apparent. Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted, might grow dispassionate, might gain release there.

"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Ben]

Hi Starter,
Perhaps it is my perspective, but, if someone has seen anatta in rupa, then the person in question is not likely to see atta in any of the other khandhas.

This doesn't seem right. There are people who may consider the consciousness, mind or "spirit" to be the Self, and not this fleshy body.

According to you.

"Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted with this body composed of the four great elements, might grow dispassionate toward it, might gain release from it. Why is that? Because the growth & decline, the taking up & putting down of this body composed of the four great elements are apparent. Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted, might grow dispassionate, might gain release there.

"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[/quote]

Selective quoting to make, yet another, cheap shot. No where in the above does it speak of having insight into anatta via contemplation of rupa.

Perhaps you should have also included the below which directly follows from above...

"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.

"The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising:

"'When this is, that is.

"'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.

"'When this isn't, that isn't.

"'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.

"'In other words:

"'From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.

"'From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.

"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.

"'From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.

"'From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.

"'From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.

"'From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.

"'From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.

"'From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming.

"'From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.

"'From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"'Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.'

"Seeing thus, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness.[1] Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

Which seems to support my earlier statement that insight into the anatta nature of rupa is an advanced insight.

[mlswe]

.