Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
mlswe
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Post by mlswe »

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Last edited by mlswe on Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mlswe
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Post by mlswe »

edit: i should speak less and practice more
Last edited by mlswe on Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A_Martin
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Post by A_Martin »

see the supreme attainments, page 119 on the following link
http://www.luangta.com/English/site/boo ... _part3.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You will notice that there are three fetters that need to be cut:
fetter of doubt, fetter of morality, and fetter that the body is anatta
before you can attain stream entry
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Ben
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Post by Ben »

A_Martin wrote: You will notice that there are three fetters that need to be cut:
fetter of doubt, fetter of morality, and fetter that the body is anatta
before you can attain stream entry
Thanks A Martin, a little clarification of the above would be appreciated.
Thanks

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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rowyourboat
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Post by rowyourboat »

Hopefully this should clarify the issue:


MN44 Culavedalla Sutta wrote:
`sakkāyo sakkāyo'ti, ayye, vuccati. katamo nu kho, ayye, sakkāyo vutto bhagavatā"ti?

pañca kho ime, āvuso visākha, upādānakkhandhā sakkāyo vutto bhagavatā, seyyathidaṃ rūpupādānakkhandho, vedanupādānakkhandho, saññupādānakkhandho, saṅkhārupādānakkhandho, viññāṇupādānakkhandho

Personality, personality it is said, lady. What is described to be personality by the Blessed One?"

Five clinging aggregates are the personality described by the Blessed One: form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate.'

So 'personality' (sakkaya) is the five clinging aggregates. It is one or few or all of these we consider to be the self. Self-view (sakkaya ditti) arises because due to lack of samadhi, we do not clearly see the aggregates. Hence we form various 'views'/conclusions/imagine various things about the aggregates, which are not true.

I have seen people able to get rid of a self view fairly easily when it comes to the body, but not so easily when it comes to the mind- hence the Buddha saying that even though the mind changes quicker, people still find it difficult to get rid of their self view of the mind. This is because the changing of consciousness is very difficult to see and the last refuge of the self view is often, consciousness. Observing only the body through vipassana is not guaranteed to get rid of self view, due to these reasons- having said that if a persons self view is only limited to the body and not to the mind (because the body is the most easily 'visible' aspect of the self) then a body contemplation like contemplating the four great 'primaries' (maha-bhutha) or doing an asubha (foulness of the body) or the body scan will/may be the required contemplation/meditation to get rid of that self view. This is not just me theorising - since I use a variety of methods to teach the dhamma, I see that different people need different methods from the satipatthana to get rid of their self-view.
Incidentally I dont have methods that I cling to and methods that I am averse to - I only care about what works.

With metta

Matheesha

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
pegembara
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Post by pegembara »

Adhimutta and the Bandits

Whatever's compounded,
wherever a state of becoming's obtained,
all that has no one in charge:
so says the Great Seer.
Whoever discerns this,
as taught by the Awakened One,
would no more grasp hold of any state of becoming
than he would a hot iron ball.
I have no 'I was,'
no 'I will be.'
Fabrications will simply go out of existence.
What's to lament there in that?
For one who sees, as it actually is,
the pure arising of phenomena,
the pure seriality of fabrications,
there's no fear.
When seeing the world with discernment
as on a par with grass & twigs,
finding no 'mine-ness,'
thinking, 'There's nothing of mine,'
he feels no sorrow.
Dissatisfied with this carcass,
I'm unconcerned with becoming.
This body will break up
and there will not be another.

Do as you like with this carcass.
From that I will feel
neither hatred nor love.

http://what-buddha-taught.net/accesstoi ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
mlswe
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Post by mlswe »

A_Martin wrote:see the supreme attainments, page 119 on the following link
http://www.luangta.com/English/site/boo ... _part3.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You will notice that there are three fetters that need to be cut:
fetter of doubt, fetter of morality, and fetter that the body is anatta
before you can attain stream entry
fetter of morality is a bit sloppily expressedI think, its the fetter of clinging to rites and rituals. Seeing that the forms of reverence isnt relevant but the contents.
rowyourboat
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Post by rowyourboat »

mlswe wrote:
A_Martin wrote:see the supreme attainments, page 119 on the following link
http://www.luangta.com/English/site/boo ... _part3.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You will notice that there are three fetters that need to be cut:
fetter of doubt, fetter of morality, and fetter that the body is anatta
before you can attain stream entry
fetter of morality is a bit sloppily expressedI think, its the fetter of clinging to rites and rituals. Seeing that the forms of reverence isnt relevant but the contents.
Silabbata ('clinging to rites and rituals') - as for what changes with that, when it comes to stream entry-IMO the change is the belief that any rite or ritual can take a person to nibbana. This was particularly relevant during the Buddhas time because people were seeking nibbana using various rites and rituals- some would act like goats and cows! When the practitioner knows beyond a shadow of doubt that dukkha finally ceases by following the noble eightfold path, gen the idea of using some rite or ritual to get there doesn't arise any more. I hope that makes sense.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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Alex123
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Post by Alex123 »

Hi Ben,
Ben wrote: Which seems to support my earlier statement that insight into the anatta nature of rupa is an advanced insight.
It can be advanced, sure. But many ideas of Self do not believe in Self being the body. Some theorize self to be the mind, spirit, soul, whatever, not necessarily the body.

With best wishes,

Alex.
mlswe
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Post by mlswe »

rowyourboat wrote:
mlswe wrote:
A_Martin wrote:see the supreme attainments, page 119 on the following link
http://www.luangta.com/English/site/boo ... _part3.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You will notice that there are three fetters that need to be cut:
fetter of doubt, fetter of morality, and fetter that the body is anatta
before you can attain stream entry
fetter of morality is a bit sloppily expressedI think, its the fetter of clinging to rites and rituals. Seeing that the forms of reverence isnt relevant but the contents.
Silabbata ('clinging to rites and rituals') - as for what changes with that, when it comes to stream entry-IMO the change is the belief that any rite or ritual can take a person to nibbana. This was particularly relevant during the Buddhas time because people were seeking nibbana using various rites and rituals- some would act like goats and cows! When the practitioner knows beyond a shadow of doubt that dukkha finally ceases by following the noble eightfold path, gen the idea of using some rite or ritual to get there doesn't arise any more. I hope that makes sense.

With metta

Matheesha
Very well said, your wisdom and expression brings joy, wishing you well
Parth
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Post by Parth »

Matheesha / RYB Wrote:
Self-view (sakkaya ditti) arises because due to lack of samadhi
As per my understanding self view arises not due to lack of 'samadhi' but due to 'avidya', even 4th Jhana samadhi / 8th Jhana samadhi on its own cannot get one rid of self view. And 'Avidya' can be irradicated only through practise of Vipassana (along with samadhi + sila).

Further, Vipassana as taught by Goenkaji can and does take one to a point where self view with respect to body and mind both can break, these are higher nanas and are very subtle but, it does reach there.

Metta

Parth
mlswe
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Post by mlswe »

edited away
Last edited by mlswe on Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
A_Martin
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Post by A_Martin »

I kept myself very short, for the link I have given explains it in great detail how to reach sotapanna.
But for short, morality is the five precepts or for a monk the 227 rules. It is a wrong translation to say rites and rituals! Sila is morality! as seen in sila samadhi and panna.
Good luck with reaching sotapanna if you cannot cut the first three fetters, this also would contradict the Lord Buddhas teaching!
If people want to believe, that they do not need to cut the 10 fetters, just understand them, that binds us to the realm of rebirth, that is fine with me. Happy rebirth! People really seem to believe that they can think there way out of dukkha. Stop thinking for a while and you will experience a whole new dimension of life. Get into onepointedness and then you will have a preview of nibbana. Knowing is not studying, thinking or assuming, it is not feeling or memorizing. Knowing can only happen when the citta is completely empty of all preoccupations.
Metta
mlswe
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Post by mlswe »

My skills in english have fundamentally failed me I must admit. i will remove my post

thank you and wishing you well
starter
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Post by starter »

"As per my understanding self view arises not due to lack of 'samadhi' but due to 'avidya', even 4th Jhana samadhi / 8th Jhana samadhi on its own cannot get one rid of self view. And 'Avidya' can be irradicated only through practise of Vipassana (along with samadhi + sila)."

-- I agree; more precisely (to me), through practice of four frames of mindfulness (body/feeling/mind/dhammas) according to Satipatthana, which helps one penetrate the reality of body/feeling/mind.

"It is a wrong translation to say rites and rituals! Sila is morality! as seen in sila samadhi and panna".
-- I kind of agree; the 2nd fetter could be the belief that sila alone can lead one to liberation, which is held by most religions. It doesn't hurt to cut both believes: belief of sila and belief of rites and rituals.
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