Wat Dhammakaya

[alan]

I would not have used the references, but have to agree with tilt on his general assessment.
Huge groups of people wearing identical outfits standing in large columns just freaks me out. Maybe it is just my individualist tendencies speaking here, but I don't trust any mass movement.

[GrahamR]

Ok, Halemalu, I have a specific question. Will you please describe the meditation technique advocated by this group, and why you believe it is beneficial.

Butting in on this point, as I recall they follow the breath to their centre (stomach) rather than just at the nose as I was trained to in our tradition, I think you were meant to visualize a sphere there. Personally, I don't object to this and have been taught the same technique by a Japanese teacher previously.

I live in southern Thailand and yesterday evening was talking to my neighbour who has just been on a business trip to the coast. We were discussing Dhamma Kaya and she agreed it is a more a business than a devout organisation. She also said she had seen a 'holiday camp' for their monks who were enjoying activities such as speed boating.
I don't find this group sinister as such, simply financially rather than spiritually orientated.

[tiltbillings]

I don't find this group sinister as such, simply financially rather than spiritually orientated.

Money is power, and power . . . .

[GrahamR]

I am not saying that the Dhammakaya organization is Nazi or Communist in its ideology, but I am saying that such regimentation is an expression of power of an organization over large numbers of human beings. It is a form of muscle flexing.

I would add that things at Dhamma Kaya are heavily regimented with 'worshippers' in neat rows segregated between men and women. It's not like visiting a normal Thai what which is a family activity for me. I really don't enjoy the feeling of 'control'

[EmptyShadow]

Graham, just to let you know that your avatar is little too big and it cuts off the beginning of the sentences on your posts.

[cooran]

Hello EmptyShadow,

Unusual first post.

...... Graham's avatar doesn't cut off the beginnings of sentences for me - maybe your browser needs a little tinkering?

with metta
Chris

[GrahamR]

Graham, just to let you know that your avatar is little too big and it cuts off the beginning of the sentences on your posts.

hi Empty Shadow,
The avatar is within the limits of the forum and it displays ok in my IE8, sorry, you may need to adjust your settings

[Khemadhammo Bhikkhu]

Ok, Halemalu, I have a specific question. Will you please describe the meditation technique advocated by this group, and why you believe it is beneficial.

Alan and others,

I don't know what Halemalu is answering to this, but living as a bhikkhu in Wat Phra Dhammakāya, I think I can answer this question. The meditation practiced in our wat is the same meditation as taught by Luang Pu Wat Paknam, commonly known as Luang Phor Sod Candasaro, a well-known Thai meditation master. Luang Pu Wat Paknam taught a form of meditation which consists of both samatha and vipassanā, starting with samatha. In this meditation practice, you bring your awareness within your body, following the pathway of your breath, stopping at the center of the abdomen and maintaining your awareness there. The key part is to be aware of this point in your body. In order to maintain this awareness, commonly Luang Pu would teach to imagine a crystal sphere, or a sphere of light as a preparatory sign (parikamma-nimitta). If the practitioner is distracted by sounds, he/she might use a word to help concentrate. Usually the word 'Sammā arahaṃ' is taught. the practitioner repeats this word continuously to mainatin concentration, until the mind becomes increasingly refined and the usage of the word is no longer necessary. Starting with the preparatory sign, the practitioner then develops the learning sign and counterpart sign, and reaches the jhānas in this way.

Almost all this can be found in the Visuddhimagga. The only thing you will not find in there directly is the word 'Sammā arahaṃ'. This word is simply meant as a description of the noble qualities of the Buddha. It was a word commonly in use by meditation monks in the time of Luang Pu, and still is used in several places in Thailand.

Coming to talk about Wat Phra Dhammakāya, I wouldn't consider it a proper subject of discussion to uncritically quote news articles from news papers. To my knowledge, most of the news papers articles about Wat Phra Dhammakāya are not written by experts on the Dhamma. I would rather suggest to discuss these matters, weighing the merits and demerits of things, the pros and cons of things, by our knowledge on the Dhamma and Vinaya. That would seem to me a better foundation for a discussion of these topics.

As for the report on Foreign Policy, I think the responses speak for themselves (see below at the end of their article).

I'd be happy to answer any questions if you would like. I am not online everyday, but I'll try to answer as soon as possible.

In the Dhamma,

Khemadhammo Bhikkhu (Phra Sander).

[exonesion]

Ok, Halemalu, I have a specific question. Will you please describe the meditation technique advocated by this group, and why you believe it is beneficial.

Alan and others,

I don't know what Halemalu is answering to this, but living as a bhikkhu in Wat Phra Dhammakāya, I think I can answer this question. The meditation practiced in our wat is the same meditation as taught by Luang Pu Wat Paknam, commonly known as Luang Phor Sod Candasaro, a well-known Thai meditation master. Luang Pu Wat Paknam taught a form of meditation which consists of both samatha and vipassanā, starting with samatha. In this meditation practice, you bring your awareness within your body, following the pathway of your breath, stopping at the center of the abdomen and maintaining your awareness there. The key part is to be aware of this point in your body. In order to maintain this awareness, commonly Luang Pu would teach to imagine a crystal sphere, or a sphere of light as a preparatory sign (parikamma-nimitta). If the practitioner is distracted by sounds, he/she might use a word to help concentrate. Usually the word 'Sammā arahaṃ' is taught. the practitioner repeats this word continuously to mainatin concentration, until the mind becomes increasingly refined and the usage of the word is no longer necessary. Starting with the preparatory sign, the practitioner then develops the learning sign and counterpart sign, and reaches the jhānas in this way.

Almost all this can be found in the Visuddhimagga. The only thing you will not find in there directly is the word 'Sammā arahaṃ'. This word is simply meant as a description of the noble qualities of the Buddha. It was a word commonly in use by meditation monks in the time of Luang Pu, and still is used in several places in Thailand.

Coming to talk about Wat Phra Dhammakāya, I wouldn't consider it a proper subject of discussion to uncritically quote news articles from news papers. To my knowledge, most of the news papers articles about Wat Phra Dhammakāya are not written by experts on the Dhamma. I would rather suggest to discuss these matters, weighing the merits and demerits of things, the pros and cons of things, by our knowledge on the Dhamma and Vinaya. That would seem to me a better foundation for a discussion of these topics.

As for the report on Foreign Policy, I think the responses speak for themselves (see below at the end of their article).

I'd be happy to answer any questions if you would like. I am not online everyday, but I'll try to answer as soon as possible.

In the Dhamma,

Khemadhammo Bhikkhu (Phra Sander).

Dear Luang Phi, I have some questions regarding Meditation and some others and I hope you could answer them.
1.How long do you usually sit for meditation ?
2.Does Chanting help in meditation ?
3.How long does it take to see the crystal sphere If I could only perceive darkness ?
4.What's the difference between keeping the 5 precepts and the 8 precepts ?
Thank you

[Phra Chuntawongso]

Dear Luang Phi, I have some questions regarding Meditation and some others and I hope you could answer them.
1.How long do you usually sit for meditation ?
2.Does Chanting help in meditation ?
3.How long does it take to see the crystal sphere If I could only perceive darkness ?
4.What's the difference between keeping the 5 precepts and the 8 precepts ?
Thank you

Hi there.
For me, I usually walk for 1hour, then sit for 1 hour.
Chanting is a form of medtation, but not one that I practise.
I can't answer number 3 as I don't do this practise.
The difference between the five pecepts and eight precepts are:
The precept to refrain from sexual misconduct,becomes a vow of celibacy.
Then we have three more precepts to live by.
6.To refrain from eating at the wrong time.In most temples this means only eating between sunrise and midday.
Some temples(forest)only eat one meal per day.
7.To refrain from dancing, singing,listening to music,watching shows,wearing garlands,wearing make up,perfume, etc.
8.To refrain from using high and luxurious seats and beds.
With metta,
Phra Greg

[Khemadhammo Bhikkhu]

Dear Luang Phi, I have some questions regarding Meditation and some others and I hope you could answer them.
1.How long do you usually sit for meditation ?
2.Does Chanting help in meditation ?
3.How long does it take to see the crystal sphere If I could only perceive darkness ?
4.What's the difference between keeping the 5 precepts and the 8 precepts ?
Thank you

Hello,
1. Between 1-3 hrs. per day, depending on my schedule. For laypeople many teachers in my tradition recommend half an hour twice per day, or more than that, as much as you feel is satisfactory for you or as much as fits in with your working schedule. It is also important that you go on a retreat now and then, to meditate more.
2. Chanting and meditation the Thai compare with medicinal cream and oral medicine, respectively. Chanting prepares your mind for meditation, but meditation is much deeper and profound because it deals with your defilements more thoroughly and directly.
3. 'Make darkness your good friend'. Be neutral and unconcerned with all experiences at the center, no matter whether you see something or not. You can practice this more and more. In this way your mind will reach more and more profound levels of stillness. This you cannot rush. Be neutral and happy with any experience, and always guide your mind back to the center.
4. Phra Greg explained this well. Nothing to add there.

Anumodanā!

Luang phi Sander.

[exonesion]

Thank you Luang Phi Greg and Luang Phi Sander

[A_Martin]

Very interesting, comparing it to the Forest tradition of Ajahn Mun
daily practice of meditation of 14 to 18 hours a day. Than Acharn Maha Bua says, that real meditation practice starts only after 3 hours in a stretch. Be it walking meditation or sitting meditation. He himself sat quite often 12hours during the night, not getting up or moving during this time.
Chanting long suttas is often recommended in this tradition for people who's concentration is weak, e.g. they cannot stay on the breath or Buddho. Once one remembers a chant one is to chant it very fast, so that one is not able to think outside the chant.
Metta Martin

[Khemadhammo Bhikkhu]

Very interesting, comparing it to the Forest tradition of Ajahn Mun
daily practice of meditation of 14 to 18 hours a day. Than Acharn Maha Bua says, that real meditation practice starts only after 3 hours in a stretch. Be it walking meditation or sitting meditation. He himself sat quite often 12hours during the night, not getting up or moving during this time.
Chanting long suttas is often recommended in this tradition for people who's concentration is weak, e.g. they cannot stay on the breath or Buddho. Once one remembers a chant one is to chant it very fast, so that one is not able to think outside the chant.
Metta Martin

I understand Exonesion's question to mean how many hours he/she should practice everyday. One hour a day seems feasible in a lay people's life, for someone who has a working life. As a monk you have more time than that.

Comparing traditions is interesting indeed, when we look at the strengths of every tradition.

In the Dhamma,

Luang phi Sander (Khemadhammo).

[Halemalu]

Ok, Halemalu, I have a specific question. Will you please describe the meditation technique advocated by this group, and why you believe it is beneficial.

So sorry I was not able to respond to your question sooner. I had lost track of this thread. I want to thank my friend the Venerable Luang Pi Sander for stepping in for me and answering your question far better than I ever could. It is wonderful to see that you are a participant in this forum and are able to represent the Dhammakaya Foundation here. I will asist you the best I can.

I do want to make a observation regarding how many of you percieve Wat Dhammakaya as being somehow too large and thus dangerous. When you see the orderly conduct of it's members, everyone lining up in perfect straight rows. This is not some power trip or mass obediance. It is what needs to be done when dealing with so many people and it is what the people want to do to show respect. If everyone in the hundreds of thousands would just rush in like a mob at a sporting event there could be no peacefull service. The people respect each other, they respect the Monks and the Abbott, and they respect the Temple grounds. That's why they all behave in what looks like a "controlled" maner. But it is self control and self discipline, not something forced upon them.

To me it is an incredible wonderous site to see hundreds of thousands of people act in a respectfull, orderly way, no pushing no shoving, no yelling, sit down in perfectly straight lines on their own accord and then meditate together in total silence. When they leave there isn't a piece of litter or garbage to be seen anywhere. And this is all done out of respect and common courtesy. The Western World should learn from such an experiance!!

One last thing I would like to share. A youtube video of One Million children singing about world peace through meditation. Something like this would be an impossibility here in the west. And that is a shame!

Rejoice in our Merit!

http://youtu.be/l4h-R9xDJDk

[helparcfun]

Hi there,

I am new to this forum and have been searching the net for information and advice concerning Dhammakaya. I should begin by letting you know a bit about myself and my reasons for trying to find out more about Dhammakaya (or 'DMC' for short as this is the name of their TV channel, and it's easier to type!).

I have been studying religions generally for some years now, sometimes academically (with the OU in the UK) but mostly out of curriosity. Personally, I have no religious inclinations at all. That's not to say that I haven't in the past. I think I sort of did once believe in some kind of all-powerful being who created everything etc etc. I was brought up by non-religious parents where religion/God wasn't really mentioned. In my teens I became interested in Buddhism because, among many things, Buddhists do not worship any God or other deity. I did not join a particular Buddhist group at that time but some years later I attended a Buddhist meditation group local to where I live. I meditated with this group just once or twice a week for 45 minutes each session, as well as practicing at home. The techniques taught were the mindfulness of breathing and Metta Bahavna (sorry if I haven't spelt that correctly). I found these techniques really relaxing and helpful and continued for some years. A friend came with me to one one their retreat houses for a weekend of quiet meditation in a beautiful part of the Sussex countryside. All this was great and then I had an opportunity to travel to a country where Buddhism is their main religion - Thailand - I thought this would be fantastic and I wasn't disapointed. I loved it there so much that six months later I returned with a friend, who at the time had a Thai girlfriend. It was through her that I also found a Thai girlfriend (not your usual bar girl I hasten to add. She ran her own business in Chiang Mai and only 7 months younger than me). It was a match 'made in heaven' so to speak.

Everything was going wonderfully, and before anyone gets the idea that this story is going to end in tears, that's not the case......at least not yet anyway!!

To cut an even longer story short, we married in 2007 and we're now living happily together in the UK. After having been here in the UK for a few years she was introduced to DMC through a mutual friend. It wasn't long before she became heavily involved with them. At first, I too was quite impressed with the local temple and the monks there. We visited the temple occasionally for meditation sessions (although I never really got to grips with their type of meditation) and one of the monks would give a Dhamma talk (useless to me unfortunately because it was all in Thai Language). Nevertheless I sat through it quietly. Some time later I discovered by accident that my wife had been donating money to the temple. Okay nothing unusual about that you may say but what I discovered was that she had been donating large sums of money (hundreds mostly and sometimes thousands of pounds). I was a little shocked to say the least at the time. She tried to placate me by telling me it was for our future together. I assume she meant that by doing this 'so called' good deed she would in return get rewards later, or in the next life etc etc. That all happened a couple of years ago. I have since lost interest in Buddhism, particularly DMC's brand of Buddhism. 'Brand' is perhaps the operative word here because, as others have said, they do seem to me, to be as much interested in promoting themselves like a company may promote it's products, as they are in promoting Buddhism. The truth is, as I said at the begining of this post, now I have no religious inclinations whatsoever. This is mainly due to my personal studies of religion and probably also due to having a sceptical mind. I would say that I have been persuaded more by non-theistic arguments and am wholly not convinced by any of the arguments in favour of any religion. The late Christopher Hitchens opinions are essentially the same as mine, having read his book, "God is not great (how religion poisons everything)."

Sorry if this seems all a bit too long-winded but I think it is necessary to know where one is coming from in order to fully understand why one feels and thinks they way the do about a subject.

My wife, in my opinion, has been almost completely 'brainwashed' by DMC and their particular brand of Buddhism. She constantly listens to DMC TV whenever she can and has no end of religious idols, pictures and other ornamental things all over the house. It's just too much sometimes for me to bear. But I am extremely understanding, or maybe tolerant because of my feelings for her as a person. DMC hasn't really changed her as a person but she can sometimes get a little self-righteous about some things. From what I understand from some of DMC's literature anyone who drinks alcohol is going to Budhhist hell (I wasn't actually aware that there was anything such as Budhhist heaven and hell, I thought that was a theistic belief). I told her recently that according to Allah everyone who doesn't embrace Islam is also going to hell to which I did not get a reply. Just like all religions she believes hers is the only true religion.

The reasons for posting this are firstly to find out if there are many other like-minded people out there concerning DMC (and religion generally) and if anyone has any helpful advice on how I might persuade my wife that she should forget about DMC. I have looked on other religious/non-religous forums but have yet to find anyone writing specifically about DMC. It seems hopeless to me at the moment that she might be persuaded otherwise but I feel the need to try anything. I want to try and persuade her that she doesn't need religion to do her thinking for her and to know what is right and wrong, she can work that out for herself just as most decent people can. I know and understand that religion is often a part of one's culture and identity but DMC seems to me to have far too much control over its followers.

Ok I've gone on rather too much. I'm sorry again for making this look like a polemic on religion. I could have gone on a lot more but perhaps in another post.

Feel free to ask me any questions relating to my issues with DMC and other matters.

Regards,

[gavesako]

I think you should look at this thread about DMC first (and don't get too shocked):
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=13673

I would say that your wife is probably quite a typical case of Thai women who might have previously been going to their local temple but never received much instruction or education about the Buddhist teachings as such, so when they end up living in the West they tend to visit the nearest Wat Thai to seek some social connections with their compatriots and home culture. I wonder if it is the Dhammakaya temple in Woking where she went? If she went instead to a more "normal" Wat Thai, like the one in Wimbledon, she would probably continue pretty much as before; with Dhammakaya, however, she will receive lots of input from the missionary monks and DMC channel which can really get her hooked. This is a deliberate strategy and it is a great money making religious business, not much different from other such groups in Christianity. They use the same "marketing" approach which they learnt from other groups.
Some Thai women, especially from Isan, have had some strong connections with the forest monasteries in their home villages and that is the reason why they will come to a place like Amaravati or Chithurst even if they have to drive longer: they say they have faith in the Kruba Ajahns or the masters of this lineage. Dhammakaya, on the other hand, is a relatively new minority sect within Thai Buddhism which still remains a fringe group, but it has managed to gain a following of business people and politicians who actively promote it (such as the current Thai prime minister). They are better trained and organized than most other Thai Buddhist groups, and they keep a high standard of discipline which is inspired by their teachings on karmic retribution vividly portrayed in their video animations of hell realms. Normal Thai Buddhists will tend to be rather lax around drinking and so on, and accept it as normal that one breaks a few of the precepts regularly (which is not so good of course and has been criticized, but the Dhammakaya type of morality smacks of evangelical Christians with "fire and brimstone").
This excessive devotion to the Dhammakaya leader, to which Thai women are more prone than the men, can cause real problems with their family life and relationship to husbands who do not share such devotion. Thais are primarily "faith types" (saddha carita) whereas we are more critical and sceptical as Westerners. Some husbands manage to ignore their wife's strange behaviour and beliefs as long as it does not impact their life too much. But it would be hard for a Western man to convince his Thai wife that her ideas about Buddhism which she got from DMC are seriously distorted in some important respects: she will tend to just believe what the monk says. The best idea would probably be to physically move away from the temple, but even then the TV channel (DMC) will be available anywhere you go...


But one trick you could try is to make her watch or read the teachings of some other popular Thai monks, such as Ajahn W. Vajiramedhi: http://www.dhammatoday.com/index.php
He comes to England every year now and his teachings are simply standard Buddhism which he knows well, adapted to deal with modern themes that are relevant for modern people. Some people criticize him for his big media exposure, and predict that he will be corrupted by such publicity as other monks before, but the good side of this (and he does it deliberately) is that it acts as a counterweight to the DMC channel and reaches a lot of Thais through the internet, Facebook, Twitter, and so on. In this way, although it might seem a bit superficial "Dhamma Light", at least they get a wholesome and positive guidance with some Buddhist principles which they can apply in their lives. His titles such as Anger Management have been translated into English too:
http://www.dhammatoday.com/index.php?op ... 54&lang=th

Good luck!

[helparcfun]

Thanks for your input Gavesako. I'm not sure I can make my wife do anything she doesn't want to, especially about her Buddhism.

One quite big thing I have on my side is that her son in Thailand (in his twenties I think) doesn't like DMC. She wont talk about it with me other than to say that they do not agree about what 'true' Buddhism should be about (if indeed there is anything such as 'true' or 'pure' Buddhism). Only problem is of course that he is in Thailand and I guess his use of the English language may not be great, so for me to get him 'on my side' is not going to be easy. He is most likely not even aware that I feel similar to him about this.

It would be interesting if one of the Dhammakaya followers, or indeed one of their monks, who has posted on this forum, would answer some questions I have about their practices. Although I'm not hopeful that I would get any satisfactory answers.

As you say, Gavesako, their ways are not dissimilar to some Christian evangelical groups. To me, it is nothing short of control and brainwashing. My understanding of one of the things that Sidarta gautama said, is that yes, people should pass on the wisdom they have learnt from his teachings but they should not 'preach' to people. I understood that one of the core teachings of the Buddha is that people should be 'invited' to take a look at his teachings and then make up their own minds, not to have it forced upon them. Unfortunately, if this were true, it sadly is definitely not practiced today. Children are unfortunately very often 'born' into their religion and therefore do not get a choice, and even if they do get a choice, the options are few (depending on which part of the globe they are born in). If you are born in India you are likely to be a Hindu, If you are born is Pakistan you are likely to be a Muslim, if you are born in Italy you are likely to be a Catholic etc etc etc.

It would be great if I could at least find some like-minded people out there who share my worries and concerns about DMC and indeed about religion in general. I suppose that being that this is essentailly a Buddhist forum I am probably 'banging my head against a brick-wall'. Anyway, it was worth a try.

In the meantime I shall carry on being my tolerant self and endure the endless noise on DMC TV etc etc.

[gavesako]

I think Buddhism is quite compatible with a healthy skepticism so you might find many similar-minded people on this forum. Also if you read some of the more standard expositions of Thai Theravada Buddhism "straight from the scriptures" you will find that it is certainly not alien to rational thinkers:

http://buddhistteachings.org/

You might like this article on choosing the right wife:
http://www.buddhistteachings.org/the-dh ... 2%A0part-2

[GraemeR]

I think you should look at this thread about DMC first (and don't get too shocked):
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=13673

I would say that your wife is probably quite a typical case of Thai women who might have previously been going to their local temple but never received much instruction or education about the Buddhist teachings as such, so when they end up living in the West they tend to visit the nearest Wat Thai to seek some social connections with their compatriots and home culture. I wonder if it is the Dhammakaya temple in Woking where she went? <snip>

Good luck!

Ven Gavesako,

I used to attend Amaravati and Chithurst when in the UK. We attended the Dhammakaya 'Temple' at Woking once. Never again. I couldn't endorse your comments more sincerely or strongly enough. To me the 'temple' was simply a business and the 'monks' business men in robes.

I now live in Thailand the there are frequent scandals about Dhammakaya.

Graham