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Anapanasati Vs. jhana - Dhamma Wheel

Anapanasati Vs. jhana

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
starter
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Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Postby starter » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:45 pm

Hello Teachers/Friends,

When we practice Anapanasati for samadhi, should we only practice Step1-4 until reaching jhana someday, and then continue with Step 5-16 for vipassana?

I suppose if we practice Anapanasati for vipassana after reaching access concentration, it's OK to do all the 16 steps; however, it's hard to enter jhana this way due to too many steps and changes.

Metta,

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Kenshou
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Postby Kenshou » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:59 pm

Hm, I would disagree. The majority of those 16 steps involve calming and stabilizing the mind, so I think they would probably be conductive to jhana. Aside from the last tetrad which is obviously a different kind of practice.

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legolas
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Postby legolas » Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:25 am


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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Postby Sylvester » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:41 am

Hi Legolas

You might wish to reconsider your points about "upacara samadhi" and "nimitta".

For the former, yes, I can agree that the nomenclature is Commentarial. But if you get past the label/denotation, what does it connote? Is the connoted phenomenon described in the Suttas, albeit by a different denotation? What are the states that are bereft of the 5 Hindrances besides the jhanas?

As for the latter, perhaps a visit to the Upakkilesa Sutta MN 128 might change your mind about the canonicity of nimittas.

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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Postby legolas » Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:42 am


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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Postby Sylvester » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:12 am


Nyana
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Postby Nyana » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:11 am


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Alexei
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Postby Alexei » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:23 am

Last edited by Alexei on Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ben
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Postby Ben » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:28 am

Thanks Geoff, very interesting as always.

Ben
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in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:09 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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legolas
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Postby legolas » Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:42 pm


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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Postby Sylvester » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:59 pm

Last edited by Sylvester on Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:01 pm

I think we should clearly differentiate between the path to 'divine eye (Dibba cakkhu) that Ven Anuruddha developed and the path to the jhanas. The path to the jhanas may go through nimittas but it does not automatically mean the person will develop Divine Eye.

The divine eye (which allows the pracitioner to see Devas/heavenly beings etc) is not a prerequisite to enlightenment. This cannot be stated strongly enough.

Only rare people will go on to develop divine eye, and often after having attained jhana. They would have developed these capabilities in previous lifetimes most probably.

I would say it can be beneficial in that it allows the person to see rebirth and devas etc and fulfil mundane right view. However it can be a hindrance as it was to Ven Anuruddha because he became quite attached and conceited about his ability. So, no great loss if it is not developed.

with metta

Matheesha
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Postby Sylvester » Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:29 pm

Hi Mateesha

I think your analysis is in line with the Commentarial explanation of the perception of obhasa and rupa dassana described in MN 128.

However, as Ven Analayo points out, this explanation does not fit in with the Samannaphala "model" of the gradual training, where the iddhis come only after 4th Jhana.

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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Postby starter » Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:18 am

Hello Teachers/Friends,

Many thanks for the very helpful comments/advice and information.

As stated in the following:

"There are, monk, these six quietenings. In him who has attained the first absorption, speech (vitaka) is quietened. Having attained the second absorption, thought-conception and discursive thinking (vicara) are quietened. Having attained the third absorption, rapture is quietened. Having attained the fourth absorption, inhalation and exhalation is quietened.[5] Having attained the cessation of perception and feeling, perception and feeling are quietened. In a taint-free monk greed is quietened, hatred is quietened, delusion is quietened." -- SN 36.11

I'm wondering if all distractive thoughts are quietened in one who has attained the 1st absorption -- no pumping up of any undirected thoughts at all from entering such absorption to withdrawing? Or probably such a quietening is only for certain periods of time and then get lost and then get back ...? Does vitaka mean "speech" like "in/out" or "Buddho"? Is the mere following of the breath without such "speech" also a type of vitaka? Vicara seems to mean "directed thoughts" to me. Is the mere following of the breath without such "directed thoughts" also a type of vicara? It's strange I experience piti and occasionally sukha sometime before but not recently. To my understanding, the stop of inhalation and exhalation (when the breathing is done via the pores of the body instead of noticable breathing) is different from step 4 of the anapanasati, which means more like calmed, subtle breathing instead of non-detectable breathing. In Meditation4, such "still breath" (stop of noticable breathing) is considered as the mark of the 4th (sutta) jhana. Would it be possible for some people to experience such still breath before reaching any sutta jhana, while still feeling the body and hearing some sounds? Would one who has reached the 4th (sutta) jhana still hear sounds and feel the body at all?

Your kind help has been most appreciated. Metta,

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Nyana
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Postby Nyana » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:48 am


Sylvester
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Postby Sylvester » Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:59 am

It might be of interest to Ajahn Chah fans that his use of "uncertain" has been translated as such from the Thai "mai neh" ('mai' being a negator). It appears to be the common understanding of the WPN Sangha that "neh" is from "nicca" and that Ajahn Chah was also bringing in the Vinaya sense of anicca not being just "impermanent", but "uncertain"/"unreliable" as well.

rowyourboat
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:14 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

rowyourboat
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:22 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

Nyana
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Postby Nyana » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:22 pm



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