An example of actual, non ideologically driven, parallel development which arose from the attainments of charismatic leaders.
Rather than a emtionally driven need to avoid exploring difference.
Ven Hua's Sangha and that of the Forest Sangha have a good deal of mutually supportive dealings.
Ajahn Chah Zen Theravada?
Re: Ajahn Chah Zen Theravada?
Indeed.PeterB wrote:An example of actual, non ideologically driven, parallel development which arose from the attainments of charismatic leaders.
Rather than a emtionally driven need to avoid exploring difference.
Ven Hua's Sangha and that of the Forest Sangha have a good deal of mutually supportive dealings.
Re: Ajahn Chah Zen Theravada?
One of the current Ajahns when a young monk wanted to join Ven Hua's monks on one of their famous " bowing" pilgrimages...but it would have cut into Rains Retreat and so it didnt happen. Apart from that practical problem, his Abbott was fully supportive of the idea.
Re: Ajahn Chah Zen Theravada?
Good point. I'm sure a lot of what was written was his western students picking and interpreting what words of his they liked. Who knows how accurate a representation of him it truly is.PeterB wrote:Remember Luang Por Chah did not write books. All you read are comments he made to specific people in their unique situation.
This makes for fertile projection ground, because of the absence of checks and balances we can take Luang Por's words and , like the works of Shakespeare project onto them what we want.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
Re: Ajahn Chah Zen Theravada?
I know of another reference to Zen Buddhism in Ajahn Chah's work:
(an excerpt from his talk, The Two Faces of Reality)
The Empty Flag
I once read a book about Zen. In Zen, you know, they don't teach with a lot of explanation. For instance, if a monk is falling asleep during meditation, they come with a stick and 'whack!' they give him a hit on the back. When the erring disciple is hit, he shows his gratitude by thanking the attendant. In Zen practice one is taught to be thankful for all the feelings which give one the opportunity to develop.
One day there was an assembly of monks gathered for a meeting. Outside the hall a flag was blowing in the wind. There arose a dispute between two monks as to how the flag was actually blowing in the wind. One of the monks claimed that it was because of the wind while the other argued that it was because of the flag. Thus they quarrelled because of their narrow views and couldn't come to any kind of agreement. They would have argued like this until the day they died. However, their teacher intervened and said 'Neither of you is right. There is no flag and there is no wind.'
This is the practice, not to have anything, not to have the flag and not to have the wind. If there is the flag, then there is the wind; if there is the wind, then there is the flag. You should contemplate and reflect on this thoroughly until you see in accordance with the Truth. If considered well, then there will remain nothing. It's empty, void; - empty of the flag and empty of the wind. There is no birth, no old age, no sickness, no death. Our conventional understanding of flag and wind is only a concept. In reality there is nothing. That's all! There is nothing more than empty labels.
If we practise in this way, we will come to see completeness and all of our problems will come to an end. In the great Void the King of Death will never find you. There is nothing for old age, sickness, and death to follow. When we see and understand in accordance with Truth, that is, with Right Understanding, then there is only this great emptiness. It's here that there is no more 'we', no 'they', no 'self' at all.
(an excerpt from his talk, The Two Faces of Reality)
The Empty Flag
I once read a book about Zen. In Zen, you know, they don't teach with a lot of explanation. For instance, if a monk is falling asleep during meditation, they come with a stick and 'whack!' they give him a hit on the back. When the erring disciple is hit, he shows his gratitude by thanking the attendant. In Zen practice one is taught to be thankful for all the feelings which give one the opportunity to develop.
One day there was an assembly of monks gathered for a meeting. Outside the hall a flag was blowing in the wind. There arose a dispute between two monks as to how the flag was actually blowing in the wind. One of the monks claimed that it was because of the wind while the other argued that it was because of the flag. Thus they quarrelled because of their narrow views and couldn't come to any kind of agreement. They would have argued like this until the day they died. However, their teacher intervened and said 'Neither of you is right. There is no flag and there is no wind.'
This is the practice, not to have anything, not to have the flag and not to have the wind. If there is the flag, then there is the wind; if there is the wind, then there is the flag. You should contemplate and reflect on this thoroughly until you see in accordance with the Truth. If considered well, then there will remain nothing. It's empty, void; - empty of the flag and empty of the wind. There is no birth, no old age, no sickness, no death. Our conventional understanding of flag and wind is only a concept. In reality there is nothing. That's all! There is nothing more than empty labels.
If we practise in this way, we will come to see completeness and all of our problems will come to an end. In the great Void the King of Death will never find you. There is nothing for old age, sickness, and death to follow. When we see and understand in accordance with Truth, that is, with Right Understanding, then there is only this great emptiness. It's here that there is no more 'we', no 'they', no 'self' at all.
Re: Ajahn Chah Zen Theravada?
Regarding the flag, this is the story:
Case 29 (of the Gateless Gate Collection): Huineng's flag
Two monks were watching a flag flapping in the wind. One said to the other, "The flag is moving."
The other replied, "The wind is moving."
Huineng overheard this. He said, "Not the flag, not the wind; mind is moving."
_/|\_
Re: Ajahn Chah Zen Theravada?
I can't think of a better example of punna ripening, at the right place and the right time.PeterB wrote:Right place, right time,
undeserved, Ben...
It took me a while to figure out that his famous Tuccho Pothila story was actually from the Dhammapada Commentary, so one wonders just how much of the extra-Canonical material he was familiar with.
Re: Ajahn Chah Zen Theravada?
The fact that he set no great store by the Abhidhamma should not lead us to conclude that he wasnt highly familiar with it...
Re: Ajahn Chah Zen Theravada?
PeterB wrote:The fact that he set no great store by the Abhidhamma should not lead us to conclude that he wasnt highly familiar with it...
I agree. I get the sense, from the account of his first interview with Ajahn Mun, that he was actually quite familiar with the Visuddhimagga, as well as the Thai text Pubbasikkha Vannana. In fact, he was finding the rules therein somewhat difficult to implement, given the complexity. I guess this might suggest that Ajahn Chah was much more well-read than his teaching method might have otherwise suggested.
Re: Ajahn Chah Zen Theravada?
He could quote whole suttas from memory.
Its like jazz. You have to be highly skilled and to have studied your instrument in geat depth in order to improvise.
Luang Por was not tapping into some mythical Buddha Nature...he knew his stuff.
Its like jazz. You have to be highly skilled and to have studied your instrument in geat depth in order to improvise.
Luang Por was not tapping into some mythical Buddha Nature...he knew his stuff.
Re: Ajahn Chah Zen Theravada?
Ahh, that is REALLY to gratifying to hear!
I've been told that the WPN translation committee has only decided to transcribe and translate the more "accessible" of Ajahn Chah's talks. Any idea if there might be any more unpublished material on the Jhanas?
I've been told that the WPN translation committee has only decided to transcribe and translate the more "accessible" of Ajahn Chah's talks. Any idea if there might be any more unpublished material on the Jhanas?
Re: Ajahn Chah Zen Theravada?
Almost certainly Sylvester. But probably the best way to access his teachings is through the present Ajahns who trained with him.
Re: Ajahn Chah Zen Theravada?
The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must no cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.
_/|\_
Re: Ajahn Chah Zen Theravada?
We could of course quote and counter quote all day. What however we would be quoting are remarks made to specific individuals on specific days for specific reasons. Which have then been edited.
To other people he would reply in terms of the Refuges and precepts, and Sila.
If we want to know about Luang Por Chah we need to sit at the feet of his Dhamma heirs.
To other people he would reply in terms of the Refuges and precepts, and Sila.
If we want to know about Luang Por Chah we need to sit at the feet of his Dhamma heirs.
Re: Ajahn Chah Zen Theravada?
I agree. It just seems that he didn't have the same dismissive attitude to Buddha-nature as is sometimes seen on this forum.PeterB wrote:We could of course quote and counter quote all day. What however we would be quoting are remarks made to specific individuals on specific days for specific reasons. Which have then been edited.
As any good teacher would.PeterB wrote:To other people he would reply in terms of the Refuges and precepts, and Sila.
Maybe one day. In the meantime I go and hear them whenever they come here.PeterB wrote:If we want to know about Luang Por Chah we need to sit at the feet of his Dhamma heirs.
_/|\_