Apostasy: A Buddhist View and Response

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Dhammanando
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Re: Apostasy: A Buddhist View and Response

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Tilt,
If Ven Dhammando could give MN I 71-2 a look at, it would be appreciated.
Bhikkhu Bodhi’s rendering is correct. The passage reads:

yo kho maṃ ... evaṃ jānantaṃ evaṃ passantaṃ evaṃ vadeyya

The participles "jānantaṃ" and "passantaṃ" are both in the accusative case and so the actions they denote —knowing and seeing— cannot belong to the nominative 'yo', but must belong to the only other word in the accusative case, which is the pronoun 'maṃ' (i.e. the Buddha).

For a rendering like Horner's we should expect a "yo ... jānaṃ ... passaṃ" construction, like in the fourth pārājika rule (Vin. iii. 90-1) or the Abyākata Sutta (AN. iv. 67-70).

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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tiltbillings
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Re: Apostasy: A Buddhist View and Response

Post by tiltbillings »

Dhammanando wrote:Hi Tilt,
If Ven Dhammando could give MN I 71-2 a look at, it would be appreciated.
Bhikkhu Bodhi’s rendering is correct. The passage reads:

yo kho maṃ ... evaṃ jānantaṃ evaṃ passantaṃ evaṃ vadeyya

The participles "jānantaṃ" and "passantaṃ" are both in the accusative case and so the actions they denote —knowing and seeing— cannot belong to the nominative 'yo', but must belong to the only other word in the accusative case, which is the pronoun 'maṃ' (i.e. the Buddha).

For a rendering like Horner's we should expect a "yo ... jānaṃ ... passaṃ" construction, like in the fourth pārājika rule (Vin. iii. 90-1) or the Abyākata Sutta (AN. iv. 67-70).

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Bhante,

Thanks. I would be interested to know why she translated the text the way she did, but being dead and all, it is just not going to happen.

I guess I have a hard time relating to this sentiment: "Sariputta, when I know and see thus, should anyone say of me: 'The recluse Gotama does not have any superhuman states, any distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones. The recluse Gotama teaches a Dhamma (merely) hammered out by reasoning, following his own line of inquiry as it occurs to him' — unless he abandons that assertion and that state of mind and relinquishes that view, then as (surely as if he had been) carried off and put there he will wind up in hell.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Dhammanando
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Re: Apostasy: A Buddhist View and Response

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:I would be interested to know why she translated the text the way she did, but being dead and all, it is just not going to happen.
Perhaps too much faith in "common sense". I have come across quite a few cases (especially in her Book of the Discipline) where Horner seems to have disregarded the grammar of the passage and translated according to what struck her as being a more "sensible" reading.
I guess I have a hard time relating to this sentiment: "Sariputta, when I know and see thus, should anyone say of me: 'The recluse Gotama does not have any superhuman states, any distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones. The recluse Gotama teaches a Dhamma (merely) hammered out by reasoning, following his own line of inquiry as it occurs to him' — unless he abandons that assertion and that state of mind and relinquishes that view, then as (surely as if he had been) carried off and put there he will wind up in hell.
One might compare the above with the teaching on the five anantariya-kamma. The kamma of killing an arahant, for example, is accrued regardless of whether the murderer knows his victim to be an arahant. The mere wish to kill a human who happens to be an arahant (even though one doesn't know it) is sufficient to fulfil the factor of volition for this anantariya-kamma.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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tiltbillings
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Re: Apostasy: A Buddhist View and Response

Post by tiltbillings »

I like Horner. She was very nice to me when I wrote to her back in the very early 70's. I had not read the Ven Bodhi translation of this sutta before. About three line down she really gives a mixed up reading.
One might compare the above with the teaching on the five anantariya-kamma. The kamma of killing an arahant, for example, is accrued regardless of whether the murderer knows his victim to be an arahant. The mere wish to kill a human who happens to be an arahant (even though one doesn't know it) is sufficient to fulfil the factor of volition for this anantariya-kamma.
Killing is one thing, stating I do not believe that guy is this or that is another, and from there it is not a big step to the Lotus Sutra. Alas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Dhammanando
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Re: Apostasy: A Buddhist View and Response

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Killing is one thing, stating I do not believe that guy is this or that is another, and from there it is not a big step to the Lotus Sutra. Alas.
I think there's a bit more to it than that. First of all, for the kamma in question to have full force four factors are needed:
  • "Sāriputta, when I know and see thus, (1) should anyone say of me: 'The recluse Gotama does not have any superhuman states, any distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones. The recluse Gotama teaches a Dhamma [merely] hammered out by reasoning, following his own line of inquiry as it occurs to him’ - (2) unless he abandons that assertion and (3) that state of mind and (4) relinquishes that view, then as [surely as if he had been] carried off and put there he will wind up in hell."
So, we have:

1. Akusalā vācā — a speech denying the the Buddha's attainment.
2. Taṃ vācaṃ na pajahati — the non-retracting of that speech.
3. Taṃ cittaṃ na pajahati — the non-abandoning of the unwholesome citta that prompted the speech.
4. Taṃ diṭṭhiṃ na paṭinissajjeti — the non-relinquishing of the wrong view expressed in the speech.


What sort of akusala speech would it be? The commentary sees it as an instance of reviling noble ones (ariyānaṃ upavāda), and the sub-commentary compares it to the case of Kokālika, who was reborn in hell for denying the attainments of Sāriputta and Moggallāna, despite the Buddha remonstrating with him.

Now in all the commentarial definitions of "reviling ariyans" one of the necessary factors is anatthakāma, meaning a desire for the harm (lit. "non-welfare") of the person reviled.

In the Visuddhimagga Buddhaghosa defines “revilers of ariyans” thus:

  • Revilers of noble ones: being desirous of harm (anatthakāmā) for noble ones consisting of Buddhas, Paccekabuddhas, and disciples, and also of householders who are stream-enterers, they revile them with the worst accusations or with denial of their special qualities; they abuse and upbraid them, is what is meant.

    Herein, it should be understood that when they say, 'They have no asceticism, they are not ascetics', they revile them with the worst accusation; and when they say, 'They have no jhāna or liberation or path or fruition etc.', they revile them with denial of their special qualities. And whether done knowingly or unknowingly it is in either case reviling of noble ones. It is weighty kamma resembling that of immediate result [meaning parricide, matricide etc.], and it is an obstacle both to heaven and to the path.

    [...]

    Reviling noble ones is greatly reprehensible because of its resemblance to kamma with immediate result. For this is said, 'Sāriputta, just as a bhikkhu possessing virtuous conduct, concentration and understanding could here and now attain final knowledge, so it is in this case, I say; if he does not abandon such talk and such thoughts and renounce such views, he will find himself in hell as surely as if he had been carried off and put there' [Mahāsīhanāda Sutta MN 12]. And there is nothing more reprehensible than wrong view, according as it is said, 'Bhikkhus, I do not see any one thing so reprehensible as wrong view' [AN. i. 33].
    (Path of Purification XIII 82-88; 90)
So, I think reading the Mahāsīhanāda Sutta in the light of the Pali commentaries will save us from the Lotus Sutra brand of bigotry and fanaticism.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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genkaku
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Re: Apostasy: A Buddhist View and Response

Post by genkaku »

a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc.
I found the dictionary definition delightful.

A "total desertion" assumes there is someone to desert and something to be deserted. Imagine that! What a delicious fantasy! It's better than "Sponge Bob Square Pants."

"Apostasy" made me think of anyone who might sit down on a cushion, straighten the spine, shut up and focus the mind. This simple activity is, without any philosophical add-on's, an act of true apostasy. Who, after all, is the believer? Isn't it just 'me?' And what is it that is believed in? Isn't it just 'me?' And when we sit down to meditate (or drink a cup of coffee or anything else for that matter), isn't the 'me' taken out of the equation? Just sitting. Just drinking coffee. Just ...

Woo-hoo! Apostasy!

And maybe some laughter.
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Re: Apostasy: A Buddhist View and Response

Post by DNS »

tiltbillings wrote:I like Horner. She was very nice to me when I wrote to her back in the very early 70's. I had not read the Ven Bodhi translation of this sutta before. About three line down she really gives a mixed up reading.
You had contact with Isaline B. Horner? :thumbsup: Cool. She sure would be on the "Mt. Rushmore" of Buddhism in the West.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Apostasy: A Buddhist View and Response

Post by tiltbillings »

Bhante,
So, I think reading the Mahāsīhanāda Sutta in the light of the Pali commentaries will save us from the Lotus Sutra brand of bigotry and fanaticism.
Which actually may explain Horner's translation. Without the commentary, the intent of the line in question is not clear.

TD,
You had contact with Isaline B. Horner? Cool. She sure would be on the "Mt. Rushmore" of Buddhism in the West.
Back in the good old days when there was little in popular literature that was good (and relatively little popular literature) and scholarly literature was hard to get, I wrote to a lot of people. I.B. Horner was very kind in her responses and suggestions. Edward Conze was also gracious and helpful. Others varied. Actually, it was Khantipalo who wrote back to me at length, with his beautiful penmanship, very helpful letters, and my interest in the Theravada stems from his direction.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
rowyourboat
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Re: Apostasy: A Buddhist View and Response

Post by rowyourboat »

coming at this from anther angle- buddhists are supposed to give up attachment to the teaching as well- so much so that enlightened being are called 'asaddaka' -meaning 'faithless'! This means that if someone berates your beliefs it doesnt cause you suffering. I remember a monk who was believed to be enlightened -he said that he was corresponding with a muslim professor -he said that if the professor managed to convince him he would convert (he said this quite seriously)!
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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Re: Apostasy: A Buddhist View and Response

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

rowyourboat wrote:coming at this from anther angle- buddhists are supposed to give up attachment to the teaching as well- so much so that enlightened being are called 'asaddaka' -meaning 'faithless'! This means that if someone berates your beliefs it doesnt cause you suffering. I remember a monk who was believed to be enlightened -he said that he was corresponding with a muslim professor -he said that if the professor managed to convince him he would convert (he said this quite seriously)!
I really like this :anjali:
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Re: Apostasy: A Buddhist View and Response

Post by pink_trike »

Individual wrote:
TheDhamma wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: The statement “the Buddha did not say that apostates would go to hell simply because of their apostasy” is wrong. It was precisely because he denied the Buddha's Enlightenment that Sunakkhatta was destined to be reborn in hell.
:thanks: , Venerable.

But perhaps Ven. Dhammika is referring to Sunakkhatta leaving of the "Buddhist" religion, not about the denying of the Buddha's enlightenment. The denial of the Buddha's enlightenment seems to be much more severe and may not be part of the definition of apostasy:

a⋅pos⋅ta⋅sy
   /əˈpɒstəsi/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [uh-pos-tuh-see] Show IPA
–noun, plural -sies.
a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc.
The Buddhist "religion" existed at that time?

And how do you separate the Buddha's enlightenment from Buddhist religion? That is, how is it possible to adopt Buddhism without believing in the Buddha's enlightenment and how is it possible to reject Buddhism while believing in the Buddha's enlightenment? The two always seem to go together.
Is it this simple? There are more options than just "believe" or "reject". The institution of "Buddhism" has grown up around the words of an awake man - first as oral tradition, then as an evolving written library, then as a concretized canon. These things can be viewed in different ways - they can be de-emphasized, viewed as container, or viewed as many different containers, rejected, worshipped, sorted, or viewed as a useful tool - aids to practice.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: Apostasy: A Buddhist View and Response

Post by thornbush »

Found this recently:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... tml#jat018" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Apannaka Jataka [go up]
Crossing the Wilderness
Jat 1

While the Buddha was staying at Jetavana Monastery near Savatthi, the wealthy banker, Anathapindika, went one day to pay his respects. His servants carried masses of flowers, perfume, butter, oil, honey, molasses, cloths, and robes. Anathapindika paid obeisance to the Buddha, presented the offerings he had brought, and sat down respectfully. At that time, Anathapindika was accompanied by five hundred friends who were followers of heretical teachers. His friends also paid their respects to the Buddha and sat close to the banker. The Buddha's face appeared like a full moon, and his body was surrounded by a radiant aura. Seated on the red stone seat, he was like a young lion roaring with a clear, noble voice as he taught them a discourse full of sweetness and beautiful to the ear.

After hearing the Buddha's teaching, the five hundred gave up their heretical practices and took refuge in the Triple Gem: the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. After that, they went regularly with Anathapindika to offer flowers and incense and to hear the teaching. They gave liberally, kept the precepts, and faithfully observed the Uposatha Day. Soon after the Buddha left Savatthi to return to Rajagaha, however, these men abandoned their new faith and reverted to their previous beliefs.

Seven or eight months later, the Buddha returned to Jetavana. Again, Anathapindika brought these friends to visit the Buddha. They paid their respects, but Anathapindika explained that they had forsaken their refuge and had resumed their original practices.

The Buddha asked, "Is it true that you have abandoned refuge in the Triple Gem for refuge in other doctrines?" The Buddha's voice was incredibly clear because throughout myriad aeons He had always spoken truthfully.

When these men heard it, they were unable to conceal the truth. "Yes, Blessed One," they confessed. "It is true."

"Disciples," the Buddha said "nowhere between the lowest of hells below and the highest heaven above, nowhere in all the infinite worlds that stretch right and left, is there the equal, much less the superior, of a Buddha. Incalculable is the excellence which springs from obeying the Precepts and from other virtuous conduct."

Then he declared the virtues of the Triple Gem. "By taking refuge in the Triple Gem," He told them, "one escapes from rebirth in states of suffering." He further explained that meditation on the Triple Gem leads through the four stages to Enlightenment.

"In forsaking such a refuge as this," he admonished them, "you have certainly erred. In the past, too, men who foolishly mistook what was no refuge for a real refuge, met disaster. Actually, they fell prey to yakkhas — evil spirits — in the wilderness and were utterly destroyed. In contrast, men who clung to the truth not only survived, but actually prospered in that same wilderness."
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