SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:48 pm

Greetings Kirk,

Interesting thoughts.

Regarding "consciousness without feature", could this be intellect without object?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby Sherab » Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:34 am


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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:14 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby Sherab » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:23 am


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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby kirk5a » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:37 am

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby beeblebrox » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:04 am

Last edited by beeblebrox on Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby kirk5a » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:15 am

Sounds good beeblebrox (are u related to Zaphod?) :smile:

So then what's the right way to read this sutta "The All" as you see it? Which of my 3 earlier interpretations? Or another one.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby beeblebrox » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:37 am


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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby kirk5a » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:55 am

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby beeblebrox » Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:08 am


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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:16 am

Here's some notes from Bhikkhu Bodhi and the Commentary (Spk) that Thanissaro Bhikhu comments on in the first post. Which does indeed seem rather convoluted.

"Bhikkhus, I will teach you the all."

Spk: The all (sabba) is fourfold:
(i) the all-inclusive all (sabbasabba), i.e. everything knowable, all of thiwhc comes into the range of the Buddha's knowledge of omniscience;
(ii) the all of the sense bases (ayatanasabba), i.e., the phenomena of the four plandes;
(iii) the all of personal identidy (sakkayasabba), i.e., the phenomena of the three planes; and
(iv) the partial all (padesasabba), i.e. the five physical sense objects. Each of these, from (i) to (iv), has a successively narrower range than it's predecessor. In this sutta the all of the sense bases is intended.

The four planes are the three mundane planes (sensuous, form, formless) and teh supramundane plane (the four paths, their fruits, and Nibbana).


"If anyone, bhikkhus, should speak thus: 'Having rejected this all, I shall make known another all' --- that would be a mere empty boast on his part."

Spk: It would be just a mere utterance. But if one passes over the twelve sense bases, one cannot point out any real phenomenon.

"If he were questioned he could not be able to reply and, further, he would meet with vexation. For what reason? Because, Bhikkhus, that would not be within his domain."

Spk: People become vexed when they go outside their domain. just as it is outside one's domain to cross a deep body of water while carrying a stone palace on one's head, or to drag the sun and moon off their course, and one would only meet with vexation if one makes the attempt, so too in this case.

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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby beeblebrox » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:46 pm


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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby daverupa » Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:45 pm

I had a number of discussions with a self-described Mormon mystic (!) a while ago who was convinced that there was such a thing as the Holy Ghost which had a 'sense' different than the other senses. I described to him the idea of six senses, as opposed to five, and asked whether we might agree that his sense of their being such an indwelling spirit might fall under this mental category - he was okay with that idea, somewhat, although it made him uncomfortable...

I expect brahmins were similar conversation partners, where instead of Holy Ghost the phrase Atman or Brahma would be used. It seems to me that the All properly limits human claims to knowledge, and prevents such claims as "It wasn't a sight, smell, taste, touch, or sound, nor was it a mere mental impression, but it was something else and I knew that such a something else was God's Voice" from being given consideration in the Dhamma.

Such a stratagem might be seen by a theist as playing a bit fast and loose, but to my way of thinking the point seems to be that since such mysticisms (to be as broad as possible) can be subsumed under the mental category, the Dhamma remains unfazed by such "evidence of permanence" as mystics experiencing union with Brahma, visions of the Virgin Mary, etc.

In short, it guards against certain types of Wrong View which were almost universal in the Buddha's day, and which are still very prevalent. I think the Buddha remarked that in cases where such Dhamma teaching was not going to be taken well, teaching instead the brahmaviharas was the best one could do.

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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:07 pm

Bebblebrox, Dave,

Thanks for the interesting observations. Always good to consider the possible audience of a discourse...

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:41 pm


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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby kirk5a » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:07 pm

What is the Pali word that is being translated as "mind" by Ireland and "intellect" by Thanissaro? Thanks.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:19 pm


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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby kirk5a » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:34 pm

Thanks. Ok help me understand this please. I'm working my way through "Samana - Luangta Maha Boowa" (awesome) and in it he says

"I understood clearly that nothing dies. The mind certainly doesn’t die; in
fact, it becomes more pronounced. The more fully we investigate the four elements,
breaking them down into their original properties, the more distinctly
pronounced the mind appears. So where is death to be found? And what is it
that dies? The four elements – earth, water, wind and fire – they don’t die. As
for the mind, how can it die? It becomes more conspicuous, more aware and
more insightful. The mind’s awareness never dies, so why is it so afraid of death?
Because it deceives itself. For eons and eons, it has fooled itself into believing
in death when actually nothing ever dies."
p.193

So which part of "the all" is this "mind's awareness" which never dies?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:58 pm


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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby kirk5a » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:58 am

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230


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