Further explanation of 'thitibhutam', the primal mind

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zavk
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Further explanation of 'thitibhutam', the primal mind

Post by zavk »

Dear friends,

I was reading A Heart Released: The Teachings of Phra Ajaan Mun Bhuridatta Thera (trans. Thanissaro Bhikkhu) and came across this term, thitibhutam, which is explained as the primal mind. This is from § 6 of the piece:
§6. The root instigator of the cycle of death and rebirth.

thitibhutam avijja-paccaya
sankhara... upadanam... bhavo... jati...


Each and every one of us born as a human being has a birthplace: we have our parents as our birthplace. So why did the Buddha formulate the teaching on sustained conditions only from the factor of unawareness onwards? What unawareness comes from, he didn't say. Unawareness has to have a mother and father just as we do, and we learn from the above line that thitibhutam is its mother and father. Thitibhutam refers to the primal mind. When the primal mind is imbued with delusion, there is a sustaining factor: the condition of unawareness. Once there is unawareness, it acts as the sustenance for the fashioning of sankhara, mental fashionings, together with the act of clinging to them, which gives rise to states of becoming and birth. In other words, these things will have to keep on arising and giving rise to each other continually. They are thus called sustained or sustaining conditions because they support and sustain one another.

Awareness and unawareness both come from thitibhutam. When thitibhutam is imbued with unawareness, it isn't wise to its conditions; but when it is imbued with awareness, it realizes its conditions for what they really are. This is how the matter appears when considered with the clear insight leading to emergence (vutthana-gamini vipassana).

To summarize: Thitibhutam is the primal instigator of the cycle of death and rebirth. Thus it is called the root source of the three (see § 12). When we are to cut the cycle of death and rebirth so that it disconnects and vanishes into nothingness, we have to train the primal instigator to develop awareness, alert to all conditions for what they really are. It will then recover from its delusion and never give rise to any conditions again. Thitibhutam, the root instigator, will stop spinning, and this will end our circling through the cycle of death and rebirth.
I'm hoping someone can further explain this notion of thitibhutam. I'm especially curious about how this concept can be understood without recourse to an originary ground or 'first cause', for to speak of 'primal' is to suggest something primary, and hence, original--this is how I normally understand 'primal'.

Many thanks,
zavk
With metta,
zavk
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Ben
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Re: Further explanation of 'thitibhutam', the primal mind

Post by Ben »

Hi Zavk

Nice thread! I've never heard of the term, which isn't particularly indicative of anything, but I also did a word search for thitibhutam in the PTS online dictionary: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and it came up with nothing.
To my very uneducated proclivities, the description from Ajahn Munn's discourse does seem to infer a first cause but also an original first-born or created self.
Anyway, I'll be intrigued to learn more.
Metta
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Rui Sousa
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Re: Further explanation of 'thitibhutam', the primal mind

Post by Rui Sousa »

I found something else on a text By Ajahn Chah Clarity of Insight (http://www.abhayagiri.org/pdf/books/clarity.pdf):
I emphasise the teaching that the Dhamma is opanayiko –-to be brought inside oneself-- so that the mind knows, understands and experiences the results of practise within itself. Don't just believe if people say you are practicing correctly, and similarly, if they say you’re doing it wrong, don't just believe them until you’ve really practised and found out for yourself. Even if they instruct you in the correct way to practise for enlightenment, that’s still just other people's words; you have to take their teachings and practise with them, until you experience results for yourself right here in the present. That means you must become your own witness, able to confirm the results from within your own mind. It's like the example of the sour fruit. Imagine I told you that a certain fruit was sour tasting and invited you to try some of it. You would have to take a bite from it to taste the sourness. Some people would willingly
14
take my word for it if I told them the fruit was sour, but if they simply believed that it was sour without ever tasting it, that belief would be useless (mogha), it wouldn't have any real value or meaning. If you described the fruit as sour, it would be merely going by my perception of it. Only that. The Buddha didn't praise such belief. But then you shouldn't just dismiss it either: investigate it. You must try tasting the fruit for yourself, and by actually experiencing the sour taste, you become your own internal witness. Somebody says it's sour, so you take it away and, by eating it, find out that it really is sour. It's like you're making double sure – relying on your own experience as well as what other people say. This way you can really have confidence in the authenticity of its sour taste; you have a witness who attests to the truth. Venerable Ajahn Mun referred this internal witness that exists within the mind as thitibhutam. The authenticity of any knowledge acquired simply from other people remains unsubstantiated, it is only a truth proven to someone else --you only have someone else's word to go on that the fruit is sour-- you could say that it's a half-truth, or fifty per cent. But if you actually taste the fruit and find it sour, that is the one hundred per cent, whole truth: you have evidence from what other people say and also from your own direct experience. This is a fully one hundred per cent substantiated truth. This is thitibhutam: the internal witness has risen within you.
A in another place of this document:
What causes wisdom to arise? It comes from contemplating impermanence, suffering and not-self, and gaining insight into the truth of the way things are. You have to see the truth clearly and beyond doubt in your own mind; it has to be like that. There has to be continuous clear insight. All objects (arammana) that arise into consciousness are seen to pass away; that cessation is followed by more arising. After more arising there is further cessation. If you still have attachment and clinging suffering must arise from moment to moment, but if you are letting go, you won't create any suffering. Once the mind is clearly seeing the impermanence of phenomena, we call it thitibhutam – the internal witness. It is self-sustaining. Hence in the beginning, you should only accept as the truth about fifty per cent of the things other people tell you.
Hope this is helpful, since I am not understanding it, and I hope to read some more on this subject.
With Metta
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Re: Further explanation of 'thitibhutam', the primal mind

Post by sukhamanveti »

The thitibhutam sounds similar, both as described and etymologically, to the bhavanga-citta ("life continuum mind" or "constituent of existence mind") of the Patthana in the Abhidhamma Pitaka (also discussed in the Milinda Panha, the Visuddhismagga, & the Abhidhammattha-sanghaha), which is synonymous with the pabhassaram-citta ("luminous mind") of the Anguttara Nikaya and the vinnana-sota ("consciousness stream") of the Digha Nikaya. Bhikkhu Bodhi, in footnote 13 to the AN, calls it the "underlying stream of consciousness." It is unconscious. It accounts for personal continuity across lifetimes apparently. Steven Collins says that the Commentaries see it as the cause or condition of continued existence [Selfless Persons (New York: Cambridge University Press, 1999) p. 239]. It looks to me like thitibhutam it is derived form thiti ("stability" or "continuation") and bhuto ("being").

Much more can be said about bhavanga. I am no expert. I haven't studied the subject in detail yet. (I haven't even finished Selfless Persons.) I'm just guessing. Ven. Dhammanando can set the record straight I'm sure.

Ed
Sīlaṃ balaṃ appaṭimaṃ.
Sīlaṃ āvudhamuttamaṃ.
Sīlamābharaṇaṃ seṭṭhaṃ.
Sīlaṃ kavacamabbhutaṃ.


Virtue is a matchless power.
Virtue is the greatest weapon.
Virtue is the best adornment.
Virtue is a wonderful armor.

Theragatha 614


Sabbapāpassa akaraṇaṃ,
kusalassa upasampadā,
Sacittapariyodapanaṃ,
etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ.


Refraining from all wrong-doing,
Undertaking the good,
Purifying the mind,
This is the teaching of the buddhas.

Dhammapada v. 183/14.5
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Re: Further explanation of 'thitibhutam', the primal mind

Post by gavesako »

I think there is nothing so mysterious about it: as it says above, it refers to the "primal mind" (citt derm in Thai), which can be understood as the mental space in which all the conditioning starting with avijja happens. It has to have a "somewhere" to occur in, otherwise avijja would be the first cause, and with the disappearance of ignorance all experience (in the case of an arahant) would also collapse.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: Further explanation of 'thitibhutam', the primal mind

Post by Jechbi »

Thank you, venerable. :anjali:

Does that mean that thitibhutam is unconditioned?
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: Further explanation of 'thitibhutam', the primal mind

Post by Dhammanando »

gavesako wrote:I think there is nothing so mysterious about it: as it says above, it refers to the "primal mind" (citt derm in Thai), which can be understood as the mental space in which all the conditioning starting with avijja happens. It has to have a "somewhere" to occur in, otherwise avijja would be the first cause, and with the disappearance of ignorance all experience (in the case of an arahant) would also collapse.
"... the mental space in which all the conditioning starting with avijja happens."

To what (if anything) would this mental space correspond in the Buddha's teaching?

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Re: Further explanation of 'thitibhutam', the primal mind

Post by robertk »

Rui Sousa wrote:I found something else on a text By Ajahn Chah Clarity of Insight (http://www.abhayagiri.org/pdf/books/clarity.pdf):
I \b] you have a witness who attests to the truth. Venerable Ajahn Mun referred this internal witness that exists within the mind as thitibhutam.[/b] \. This is thitibhutam: the internal witness has risen within you.
.
This seems like pure self view, assuming it is not a mistranslation.
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Re: Further explanation of 'thitibhutam', the primal mind

Post by gavesako »

Dhammanando wrote:
gavesako wrote:I think there is nothing so mysterious about it: as it says above, it refers to the "primal mind" (citt derm in Thai), which can be understood as the mental space in which all the conditioning starting with avijja happens. It has to have a "somewhere" to occur in, otherwise avijja would be the first cause, and with the disappearance of ignorance all experience (in the case of an arahant) would also collapse.
"... the mental space in which all the conditioning starting with avijja happens."

To what (if anything) would this mental space correspond in the Buddha's teaching?
Well, it could just be citta in its "pure" mode of functioning, which would correspond to the kind of citta that remains in the case of an arahant until they pass away. However, let us say this is just a theoretical construct in order to explain how avijja is NOT the first cause (as some Western interpreters have suggested). It does not mean that at some point (X asankheyyas ago) we were in fact little arahants already and then somehow we fell into sin...
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: Further explanation of 'thitibhutam', the primal mind

Post by gavesako »

robertk wrote:
Rui Sousa wrote:I found something else on a text By Ajahn Chah Clarity of Insight (http://www.abhayagiri.org/pdf/books/clarity.pdf):
I \b] you have a witness who attests to the truth. Venerable Ajahn Mun referred this internal witness that exists within the mind as thitibhutam.[/b] \. This is thitibhutam: the internal witness has risen within you.
.
This seems like pure self view, assuming it is not a mistranslation.
In another passage Ajahn Chah says that this "witness" is nothing but the function of sati-sampajanna.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: Further explanation of 'thitibhutam', the primal mind

Post by robertk »

gavesako wrote: In another passage Ajahn Chah says that this "witness" is nothing but the function of sati-sampajanna.
Thanks. So then it is merely a conditioned, ephemeral element, not under anyone's power, uncontrollable.

"within the mind" is a poor way to put it (or translate it).
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Re: Further explanation of 'thitibhutam', the primal mind

Post by gavesako »

robertk wrote:
gavesako wrote: In another passage Ajahn Chah says that this "witness" is nothing but the function of sati-sampajanna.
Thanks. So then it is merely a conditioned, ephemeral element, not under anyone's power, uncontrollable.

"within the mind" is a poor way to put it (or translate it).
It is of course translated from Thai, and Thai language does not lend itself easily for Abhidhamma-type precision when describing states of consciousness (for which Pali or Sanskrit are much better tools). So they say things like that more from the point of view of "how it feels" (how it is directly experienced).
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Ben
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Re: Further explanation of 'thitibhutam', the primal mind

Post by Ben »

Dear all

I'm sorry, but can someone please indicate whether thitibhutam is a Thai rather than Pali word? If its a Pali word, is anyone able to point to the use of the term thitibhutam in the tipitaka or the ancient commentarial literature?
If so, can one please provide the context in which it is used and/or a definition of the term.
If its a Thai word, is there a synonym in Pali and if it is bhavanga citta, then why didn't Ajahn Chah (and/or others) not use bhavanga citta?
My apologies for the convoluted questions.
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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cooran
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Re: Further explanation of 'thitibhutam', the primal mind

Post by cooran »

Hello zavk, Ben, all,

Here is an occurrence of the term - not sure if this will help or hinder ~
from "Clarity of insight by Ajahn Chah" pps. 14 - 16
"That means you must become your own witness, able to confirm the
results from within your own mind. It's like the example of the sour
fruit. Imagine I told you that a certain fruit was sour tasting and
invited you to try some of it. You would have to take a bite from it
to taste the sourness. Some people would willingly if I told them the
fruit was sour, but if they simply believed that it was sour without
ever tasting it, that belief would be useless (mogha), it wouldn't
have any real value or meaning. If you described the fruit as sour,
it would be merely going by my perception of it. Only that. The
Buddha didn't praise such belief. But then you shouldn't just dismiss
it either: investigate it. You must try tasting the fruit for
yourself, and by actually experiencing the sour taste, you become
your own internal witness. Somebody says it's sour, so you take it
away and, by eating it, find out that it really is sour. It's like
you're making double sure - relying on your own experience as well as
what other people say. This way you can really have confidence in the
authenticity of its sour taste; you have a witness who attests to the
truth. Venerable Ajahn Mun referred this internal witness that exists
within the mind as thitibhutam. The authenticity of any knowledge
acquired simply from other people remains unsubstantiated, it is only
a truth proven to someone else --you only have someone else's word to
go on that the fruit is sour-- you could say that it's a half-truth,
or fifty per cent. But if you actually taste the fruit and find it
sour, that is the one hundred per cent, whole truth: you have
evidence from what other people say and also from your own direct
experience. This is a fully one hundred per cent substantiated truth.
This is thitibhutam: the internal witness has risen within you.

*snip*

What causes wisdom to arise? It comes from contemplating
impermanence, suffering and not-self, and gaining insight into the
truth of the way things are. You have to see the truth clearly and
beyond doubt in your own mind; it has to be like that. There has to
be continuous clear insight. All objects (arammana) that arise into
consciousness are seen to pass away; that cessation is followed by
more arising. After more arising there is further cessation. If you
still have attachment and clinging suffering must arise from moment
to moment, but if you are letting go, you won't create any suffering.
Once the mind is clearly seeing the impermanence of phenomena, we
call it thitibhutam - the internal witness. It is self-sustaining.
Hence in the beginning, you should only accept as the truth about
fifty per cent of the things other people tell you.
On one occasion the Buddha gave a discourse."
http://www.abhayagiri.org/pdf/books/clarity.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
Chris
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zavk
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Re: Further explanation of 'thitibhutam', the primal mind

Post by zavk »

Thank you all for your responses.

I did come across the article by Ajahn Chah when I Googled thitibhutam. What surprised me was how little information there was about the term. The only results thrown up by Google were the explanations by Ajahn Mun or Ajahn Chah--there were several Chinese sites but as far as I can tell (I understand Chinese) they are translations of the same teachings.

It seems that 'thitibhutam' has only been used by Thai teachers.
Ben wrote:I'm sorry, but can someone please indicate whether thitibhutam is a Thai rather than Pali word? If its a Pali word, is anyone able to point to the use of the term thitibhutam in the tipitaka or the ancient commentarial literature?
If so, can one please provide the context in which it is used and/or a definition of the term.
I believe it is a Pali word. I think when Bhikkhu Gavesako said this....
gavesako wrote:It is of course translated from Thai, and Thai language does not lend itself easily for Abhidhamma-type precision when describing states of consciousness (for which Pali or Sanskrit are much better tools). So they say things like that more from the point of view of "how it feels" (how it is directly experienced).
...he was referring the phrase 'within the mind' in the article on Ajahn Chah which has been translated from Thai.

But the question of where 'thitubhutam' comes from and why it hasn't been mentioned in other places and by other teachers still remains. :shrug: :?:

Metta,
zavk
With metta,
zavk
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