Spotting an Arahant
Spotting an Arahant
For a long time I see that people would sometimes identify if someone who claims themselves as an Arahant. To see he is a real or a fake Arahant by the "factors of Arahant" something like that. But how do we actually know that person is an Arahant if, he do not claim himself as Arahant but he is one?
- Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Spotting an Arahant
There are several previous threads on this topic.
This is something I wrote some years ago in response to a similar question on another forum.
How would you know when you have gained enlightenment?
14/7/2003
It is possible for an unenlightened person to be deluded about that, but an enlightened person could know by reading such books as "The Progress of Insight."
It is also possible that an enlightened person would not know, due to lack of scriptural knowledge. It is very difficult to know whether another person has attained a certain stage or not, but a person with good scriptural knowledge might know with some degree of certainty. Only someone like the Buddha or Venerable Anuruddha would know by direct knowledge.
The Mirror of the Dhamma in the Mahaparinibbana sutta gives four criteria:
This little story nicely illustrates the difficulty of measuring an enlightened person.
A certain monk was living in dependence on an Arahant. Living in dependence meant that he shared the same room as his teacher, did all the duties for him, and carried his almsbowl for him while walking behind for alms. One day, while walking for alms, the pupil asked, “Venerable sir, how can one know whether another person is an Arahant?”
The Arahant replied, “It is not easy, friend, to know if another person is an Arahant. Even if one lived in dependence on an Arahant, did all the duties for him, and carried his almsbowl while walking behind him for alms, one might not know that his teacher was an Arahant.”
Even when given such a broad hint as this, the pupil did not realise that his teacher was an Arahant. The Arahants have stainless minds free from all pride and conceit. They do not boast of their attainments, unless there is no other way to help people.
This is something I wrote some years ago in response to a similar question on another forum.
How would you know when you have gained enlightenment?
14/7/2003
It is possible for an unenlightened person to be deluded about that, but an enlightened person could know by reading such books as "The Progress of Insight."
It is also possible that an enlightened person would not know, due to lack of scriptural knowledge. It is very difficult to know whether another person has attained a certain stage or not, but a person with good scriptural knowledge might know with some degree of certainty. Only someone like the Buddha or Venerable Anuruddha would know by direct knowledge.
The Mirror of the Dhamma in the Mahaparinibbana sutta gives four criteria:
- Unshakeable confidence in the Buddha
- Unshakeable confidence in the Dhamma
- Unshakeable confidence in the Sangha
- Morality that is stainless and without defect
This little story nicely illustrates the difficulty of measuring an enlightened person.
A certain monk was living in dependence on an Arahant. Living in dependence meant that he shared the same room as his teacher, did all the duties for him, and carried his almsbowl for him while walking behind for alms. One day, while walking for alms, the pupil asked, “Venerable sir, how can one know whether another person is an Arahant?”
The Arahant replied, “It is not easy, friend, to know if another person is an Arahant. Even if one lived in dependence on an Arahant, did all the duties for him, and carried his almsbowl while walking behind him for alms, one might not know that his teacher was an Arahant.”
Even when given such a broad hint as this, the pupil did not realise that his teacher was an Arahant. The Arahants have stainless minds free from all pride and conceit. They do not boast of their attainments, unless there is no other way to help people.
Blog • Pāli Fonts • In This Very Life • Buddhist Chronicles • Software (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
Re: Spotting an Arahant
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A well-read layman was conversing with Luang Pu, saying,
"I firmly believe that in our present day and age there are not just a few monks who have practiced to the point of reaching the paths, fruitions, and nibbana. So why don't they make their knowledge public, so that those who are interested in the practice will know of the levels of Dhamma they have attained, as a way of giving them encouragement and hope so that they'll accelerate their efforts to the utmost of their ability?"
Luang Pu answered,
"Those who have awakened don't talk of what they've awakened to, because it lies above and beyond all words."
Re: Spotting an Arahant
Sadhu!
Re: Spotting an Arahant
You wouldn't believe them if they told you, because you see enlightenment as something special and beyond normal reach. They see simply what is here, fully accepting the temporal nature of their lives and all phenomena. Mind and matter. Sights, sounds, tastes, bodily sensations, smells and mental formations. They are the least special of all, being at once everything and nothing in particular, no more than part of the stream of life we all share.
It will never serve you to seek the Buddha, any Buddha, outside of your own mind.
It will never serve you to seek the Buddha, any Buddha, outside of your own mind.
Re: Spotting an Arahant
The mind that sees, hears, smells, tastes, feels (body/touch), thinks/cognizes, perceives, remembers, is aware of emotional feelings.
The mind that sees these words.
The mind that sees these words.
Re: Spotting an Arahant
Why would it be important to know?unspoken wrote:For a long time I see that people would sometimes identify if someone who claims themselves as an Arahant. To see he is a real or a fake Arahant by the "factors of Arahant" something like that. But how do we actually know that person is an Arahant if, he do not claim himself as Arahant but he is one?
Re: Spotting an Arahant
Because If I am so lucky enough to saw one,I can ask him on how and what should I do in my meditation
- Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Spotting an Arahant
The problem is, that its so very difficult to know about the inner purity of another.
Anyone can be happy and gay as long as life goes along his own way
but the man worth while is the man with a smile, when everything goes dead wrong.
An intelligent person can observe a teacher for a long time, while living closely together with him or her, and after seeing no trace of anger or lust, even in ways of speech, they may come to regard that teacher as an Arahant, or on the path to Arahantship.
For example, I heard that at one time, when the Venerable Mahāsī Sayādaw was taking his meals, a heavy ceiling fan crashed to the ground beside him. Had it hit him it could easily have killed him. Apparently, he was completely unshaken by this event, whereas most of us would have been deeply shocked. Such anecdotal evidence about great teachers is not proof of anything very much, but still it is possible to gain confidence in a teacher after a long association.
On the other hand, unintelligent and gullible persons can easily be misled by false teachers. After seeing a few magic tricks they are deeply impressed, and regard their teacher very highly. It is a very dangerous situation for such devotees. If anyone points out that their guru is just a charlatan, they will get very angry and defensive. They donate lavishly, and lose their wealth, perpetuating the myth to all of their friends. Their friends are swept away in the flood.
So, one should not concern oneself too much with the teacher's reputation, but listen carefully to the teaching, comparing it with the Dhamma and Vinaya that one has heard elsewhere, to see if it fits in with it. Best of all, is to practice hard and gain personal realisation through insight, then one will be quite independent of any teacher.
The Story of Suppabuddha
Anyone can be happy and gay as long as life goes along his own way
but the man worth while is the man with a smile, when everything goes dead wrong.
An intelligent person can observe a teacher for a long time, while living closely together with him or her, and after seeing no trace of anger or lust, even in ways of speech, they may come to regard that teacher as an Arahant, or on the path to Arahantship.
For example, I heard that at one time, when the Venerable Mahāsī Sayādaw was taking his meals, a heavy ceiling fan crashed to the ground beside him. Had it hit him it could easily have killed him. Apparently, he was completely unshaken by this event, whereas most of us would have been deeply shocked. Such anecdotal evidence about great teachers is not proof of anything very much, but still it is possible to gain confidence in a teacher after a long association.
On the other hand, unintelligent and gullible persons can easily be misled by false teachers. After seeing a few magic tricks they are deeply impressed, and regard their teacher very highly. It is a very dangerous situation for such devotees. If anyone points out that their guru is just a charlatan, they will get very angry and defensive. They donate lavishly, and lose their wealth, perpetuating the myth to all of their friends. Their friends are swept away in the flood.
So, one should not concern oneself too much with the teacher's reputation, but listen carefully to the teaching, comparing it with the Dhamma and Vinaya that one has heard elsewhere, to see if it fits in with it. Best of all, is to practice hard and gain personal realisation through insight, then one will be quite independent of any teacher.
The Story of Suppabuddha
Blog • Pāli Fonts • In This Very Life • Buddhist Chronicles • Software (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
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Re: Spotting an Arahant
Great post.Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:On the other hand, unintelligent and gullible persons can easily be misled by false teachers. After seeing a few magic tricks they are deeply impressed, and regard their teacher very highly. It is a very dangerous situation for such devotees. If anyone points out that their guru is just a charlatan, they will get very angry and defensive. They donate lavishly, and lose their wealth, perpetuating the myth to all of their friends. Their friends are swept away in the flood.
The Story of Suppabuddha
Showing off supernatural powers to impress others is the sign that the person is a charlatan.
Re: Spotting an Arahant
Dear, just ask a good meditation teacher, is all you need for now.unspoken wrote:Because If I am so lucky enough to saw one,I can ask him on how and what should I do in my meditation
Like, if I want to learn how to cook well , I don't need a famous master cook who has all the Michelin stars and Gault Milleau stuff, but is hard to get at.
You will automatically gravitate towards higher goals from there once you are ready.
At least imo.
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Re: Spotting an Arahant
In terms of magic tricks- it is interesting that the Buddha discouraged 'magic tricks', yet he openly admitted that he was not 'just' a normal human being. There is something in us humans that get drawn into the mysterious- something bigger and beyond ourselves. If there is genuinely something to that effect, and it helps to help others, I wonder what the ethics of revealing such a thing is...
with metta
Matheesha
with metta
Matheesha
With Metta
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Re: Spotting an Arahant
Don't worry about others. Just worry about yourself, then when YOU become an arahant, that'll settle it. No more questions, right?
Re: Spotting an Arahant
Agreed.Annapurna wrote:Dear, just ask a good meditation teacher, is all you need for now.unspoken wrote:Because If I am so lucky enough to saw one,I can ask him on how and what should I do in my meditation
Like, if I want to learn how to cook well , I don't need a famous master cook who has all the Michelin stars and Gault Milleau stuff, but is hard to get at.
You will automatically gravitate towards higher goals from there once you are ready.
At least imo.