Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:45 pm

Ooops, I accidentally deleted the msg immediately preceding Christopher's. I said in that msg to Jechbi, that if your words really mean anything, then shut down the negative entries in your blog.

As for Jechbi's above msg, he is not going to be banned. If we did not ban him for the sustained and unfair (in our opinion, of course) attack on Dhamma Wheel, we are not going to ban for what he says in this thread. What was done early on when we became aware of the blog is that we blocked Jechbi's ability to advertise his blog via his twitter account by blocking his ability to post the twitter link as a signature, though the link to his twitter account still exists in his profile.

Blocking his ability to post a signature that would advertise his blog was a next to nothing response to what is seen by us as a sustained attack on DW and its staff.

Jechbi's latest blog entry:


Uncovering what is concealed


In what I view as a very positive development, the Dhamma Wheel mod/admin team has decided to allow members to be aware that this blog exists. Administrator Retrofuturist has created this discussion thread. Some of the Dhamma Wheel members, including a venerable monk, already have visited this blog as a result and have posted comments. Thanks to everyone.

Meanwhile, however, my Dhamma Wheel membership has been altered so that I no longer am able to create a sig. I had been using a quote from the Buddha as my sig. It was this:

Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

It’s not clear to me why the Dhamma Wheel mod/admin team would object to using this Buddha quote as my sig. I think it’s because the first line of the quote is the title of this blog. Whatever the reason, it’s not that big a deal. I’m just happy to see that they’ve changed their mind about trying to hide this blog from Dhamma Wheel members.
I hope it is now clear why his ability to post a signature has been blocked. It has nothing to do with this verse.

I do not have the access to do anything about it, but he can certainly address Paul or David about this, which would have been the thing to do if he was at all serious about all the nice things he said about Dhamma Wheel and it staff, rather than posting the above.

Also, this little entry rather neatly illustrates the spinning of so much of what is found in Jechbi's blog entries: "I’m just happy to see that they’ve changed their mind about trying to hide this blog from Dhamma Wheel members." Does Jechbi seriously think that given that nature of the criticisms of his blog that we should just have allowed him to promote his blog on Dhamma Wheel? The blog was out there for people to find; there was no way we could stop that and that was not even a remote consideration (even if it were possible), but there is no reason in hell why we should feel any obligation to allow it to be advertised on Dhamma Wheel, given the nature of the unfair criticism it contains. And so it goes.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby Jhana4 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:59 pm

tiltbillings wrote:While it is a bit disconcerting to be the focus of something such as this, there is always something to be learned from what one has to deal with. The feedback here has helped me put this into perspective, and for that thank you - all of you.


I've been in your position and in Jec's.

It is large in your minds, but not really anyone else's. Most people do not care. If either of you explained the situation to someone not part of the board they would let you know in a kind way that you are investing yourself in something trivial. Nobody is getting ready to condemn you. If people beyond the board bothered to think of it at all, they would see it in the same way as people giving each other rude gestures on the highway. Nice people do it, it is a blind spot in people's behavior patterns and it feels very intense at the time even though it matters very little to anyone.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:03 pm

Jhana4 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:While it is a bit disconcerting to be the focus of something such as this, there is always something to be learned from what one has to deal with. The feedback here has helped me put this into perspective, and for that thank you - all of you.


I've been in your position and in Jec's.

It is large in your minds, but not really anyone else's. Most people do not care. If either of you explained the situation to someone not part of the board they would let you know in a kind way that you are investing yourself in something trivial. Nobody is getting ready to condemn you. If people beyond the board bothered to think of it at all, they would see it in the same way as people giving each other rude gestures on the highway. Nice people do it, it is a blind spot in people's behavior patterns and it feels very intense at the time even though it matters very little to anyone.
Blind spot? I don't see any blind spot.

As I said, I appreciate the feedback, and your insight into this. All too easy to get caught up in this. Thanks.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby Jhana4 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:05 pm

Jechbi wrote:I don't want to get into all the minutiae,


I think you should, because that would put an end to it.

As long as you talk in generalities instead of specific grievances you make it impossible for other people to understand the problem and decide what a resolution would look like. Talking in generalities might make other people ( mistakenly?) think that you want the conflict to continue as a means of making the mods "pay" for offending you. For example, using the general term "Suppressing Free Speech" sounds much more dramatic than stating the specific grievance "he told me that posting about the stock market was off topic for a web board about Buddhism"

If you delineate what specifically offended you and describe why it is a problem, then the mods can offer possible solutions and put an end to the dispute one way or another.
Last edited by Jhana4 on Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby Jhana4 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:16 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Blind spot? I don't see any blind spot.


LOL. Um, that is why it is called a "blindspot" :)

This is what I meant by "blindspot". People who consider themselves to be reasonable people will not do certain things. They have a set of rules or a map for "good behavior" which they follow at work, in their homes, with their friends and among strangers in public. However there are "gaps" or "blind spots" in those maps. One of them we are all familiar with is giving people rude gestures while in our cars on the highways. For some reason, driving on the highway isn't incorporated into our behavior map. Nice people can and do ( I did ) give people rude gestures in stressful situations on the highway.

That is what I meant by "blind spot"

Another one is internet behavior.

People who have mental behavior maps as meditators try not to let their impulses rule themselves. Such people when feeling fleeting frustration in real life, like getting told something they don't want to hear at motor vehicales, would control their impulses and take pride in responding in a skillfull way. People in their lives would correctly recognize them as people trying to do things in a better way. Yet, on the internet, a similar kind of mild frustration.....like an ego bruising would result in the person responding harshly, cultivating more hostility, more ego driven behavior etc.......instead of letting their feelings go, identifying the problem and using discipline to find a resolution to the problem. Another blind spot in the mental map of otherwise sophisticated people.

I don't know you, Jec or the exchange you two had. I'm speaking in general from having seen ( and been in ) many arguments like this on the net.

Remember, it is unlikely that anyone else on the planet cares as much about that exchange as you two people in particular.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:34 pm

Jhana4 wrote:
Jechbi wrote:I don't want to get into all the minutiae,


I think you should, because that would put an end to it.
Actually, looking at the minutiea has not yet put an end to it. The only thing that would put an end to it is if he gets the results he wants. The minutiae has been dealt with in detail in his complaints and on his blog. What real purpose would be going over all the perceived hurts and slights that fuel this all of this?

Here is an offending thread according Jechbi, of which he says: I began experiencing tension when I responded to some of his ideas in this discussion, where Tiltbillings defends and promotes the practice of mindful masturbation.: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6847

Defending and promoting mindful masturbation? Not at all.

The blog entry: http://dhammawheel.wordpress.com/2010/1 ... n-the-web/

It did not matter what I said in the actual thread or in reply to his blog entry; he knows better my thoughts than do I, it would seem, and never mind what I write.

No, there is no point that I can see getting lost in the minutiea of all this. It would be endless That is only feeding the beast.

As can be seen here, I asked Jechbi to contact me privately so we can talk: http://dhammawheel.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... nary-tale/

He has not done this, but he'll likely claim it is because I am such meanie and that likely I'll be mean to him if he does.

I have apologized. I meant it and mean it. Where else does this need to go?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:37 pm

Jhana4 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Blind spot? I don't see any blind spot.


LOL. Um, that is why it is called a "blindspot" :)
It is was a joke, son, a joke. (To be read in a Foghorn Logehorn voice.)
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby Jhana4 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:05 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:
Jechbi wrote:I don't want to get into all the minutiae,


I think you should, because that would put an end to it.

Actually, looking at the minutiea has not yet put an end to it.


How about Jechbi listing specifically what he wants, the mods listing specifically what they are willing to do. If those two lists match up on some items great. Those things get done and the conflict ends.

If not, then there is nothing that can be done. The mods could say they made offers, Jechhbi can tell himself that he stood up for himself and people move on.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:08 pm

Jhana4 wrote:How about Jechbi listing specifically what he wants, the mods listing specifically what they are willing to do. If those two lists match up on some items great. Those things get done and the conflict ends.
That has already been done, and we are here now.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby Jhana4 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:21 pm

It might be worthwhile to just to drop it ( cold ).

I know I wrote it before, but a number of years ago I took over an email list. One of the members didn't like that I didn't use a number of his suggestions for how to change the list. He argued with me a lot and eventually put up a hate blog. It is still up 5 years later. Consequences I and the list have suffered as a result? Zero.

Nobody beyond the people involved cared.

DW will continue to thrive. Everyone in your real life will continue to treat you exactly as before.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
 
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby PeterB » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:32 pm

Aint that the truth...I find myself from time to time wondering how some members would cope with the rough and tumble of meat sangha. Theres nothing like it.....or as my hero Foghorn would say "theres nuthin', ah say theres nuthin' like it son ! "
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:33 pm

Jhana4 wrote:It might be worthwhile to just to drop it ( cold ).
Likely where it go.

DW will continue to thrive. Everyone in your real life will continue to treat you exactly as before.
No question about it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby Jhana4 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:41 pm

PeterB wrote:Aint that the truth...I find myself from time to time wondering how some members would cope with the rough and tumble of meat sangha.


If by that you mean a real sangha, instead of a web board they might do quite well. I think the internet breeds this kind of thing being anonymous and also being slightly hypnotic, like television. People who would otherwise deal with disappointment in a skillful manner, in real life, when faced with real people, can fly off the handle on the internet.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
 
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby nathan » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:50 pm

PeterB wrote:Aint that the truth...I find myself from time to time wondering how some members would cope with the rough and tumble of meat sangha. Theres nothing like it.....or as my hero Foghorn would say "theres nuthin', ah say theres nuthin' like it son ! "

Oh dear yes. The last monastery I was at they beat the crap out of me for buttering the toast on the wrong side. I barely escaped with my life. Tilt is the wind beneath my wings.
Last edited by nathan on Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:21 pm

Jhana4 wrote:
PeterB wrote:Aint that the truth...I find myself from time to time wondering how some members would cope with the rough and tumble of meat sangha.


If by that you mean a real sangha, instead of a web board they might do quite well. I think the internet breeds this kind of thing being anonymous and also being slightly hypnotic, like television. People who would otherwise deal with disappointment in a skillful manner, in real life, when faced with real people, can fly off the handle on the internet.

I was actually thinking about that. In real life groups one has to deal with various practical stuff, and certain personality conflicts, which of course can be a bit challenging. However, the difference is that (in my experience) those things generally have almost nothing to do with Dhamma itself. They are usually purely mundane, like any other real-life group...

What, for me, is very different and puzzling on boards like this is how important what in real life are (to me) small differences in interpretation of Dhamma seem to become. Perhaps it's because I'm so grateful for any contact with long term practitioners and/or teachers that whether they are sutta/commentary advocates or vipassana/jhana practitioners are of little concern. It's such a pleasure to talk to good practitioners.

Of course, it's clear that in a Forum situation, analytical discussion are the most obvious thing to do. But it still surprises me that these differences can cause such polarization. Rather simply discussing and acknowledging the various views out there, there seems to be a determination to find "the truth" through argument...

Perhaps a key difference between the Internet and real life is that if one finds that a real-life group is unsuitable or uncomfortable, one will simply not bother to return. Returning to an Internet group takes no effort, so such arguments are likely to continue for much longer...

:anjali:
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby Jhana4 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:40 pm

mikenz66 wrote:What, for me, is very different and puzzling on boards like this is how important what in real life are (to me) small differences in interpretation of Dhamma seem to become.


I really do believe that computer use is hypnotic. Maybe it is the bright lights and colors, combined with anonymity and using it alone.

People can become very sad or angry from watching a movie, which is fiction. Same thing with a television show or even a book. Why? Its all fiction. I think all those things involve some sort of induction, like hypnosis or meditation. Once there a daydream is painted. A happy daydream can be painted and the person will feel good. Or a nasty one can be painted. A nasty one that to a person who is in a slight trance will bypass all of their rational filters for handling small disturbances and go right to a place where an overdone response will be created.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
 
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby PeterB » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:45 pm

I think two things happen simultaneously..one is that people are disinhibited by anonymity, and two in the absence of other social cues they fall back on to a range of cognitive shuffles.
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby Mawkish1983 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:52 pm

:focus: ?
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby Annapurna » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:02 pm

alan wrote:If anyone can tell me how to respond to Hannze without mocking him, I'd like to hear it.
Once, twice, OK. Three times, 6 times? How about every time? Let's face it--if every post is laughably dumb then the only response is to treat it like comic relief. Sorry if this offends those with tender senses, but Hannze has made no effort to clarify his thoughts, good-natured though they may be. Why should I take them seriously?


Alan,

This is not so much about offending others but about harming yourself.
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby Annapurna » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:06 pm

Viscid wrote:Also, Hanzze is the most lovable person on this forum and you Hanzze-bashers have got no heart.
:heart: :heart: Hanzze :heart: :heart:


:twothumbsup:
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