Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:19 am

Hi Jhana4,

Unfortunately, the software we are using here doesn't seem to do any kind of notification automatically, and if things are moved around a bit as Ben indicated, or if some posts are deleted, it's quite time consuming to notify all of the interested parties. Sorry the service is not always as slick as it should be...

:anjali:
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby Jechbi » Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:19 am

I truly believe that if I had created suggestion-box entries with my concerns, they would have been made invisible, and I would have received warnings from the mods not to do that again. Folks reading this thread have no idea what went on behind the scenes. Some of the responses I received from the mod/admin team were very inflamatory.

I created the blog because I was shut down here again and again. I wanted to have a place where I could put a legitimate post and make it visible if it was taken down. And I wanted a place where other people could do the same thing, if they faced the same problems I encountered. It's effortless to create a blog these days, so it was a matter of just a few minutes to set it up and post it. And voila, there was my post that Dhamma Wheel had made invisible.

The other entries on my blog are straightforward and frankly not that negative for the most part. Generally I start with a broader issue, then I may give an example from Dhamma Wheel or elsewhere to illustrate the problem. The blog became negative mostly as a result of the overwhelmingly hostile and personal responses that were posted there by others. Take a look and you'll see what I mean. I tried to meet every insult, every accusation, with an attitude of friendship and gratitude.

I did make some negative posts. The most negative posts I made were in response to the shocking responses I received from the Dhamma Wheel mod/admin team after creating the blog. I'm blown away by what has happened. Perhaps most damaging was a public reference to me, by name, on another forum. The contents of that reference, including name-calling, are far more negative than anything I said about anybody. And that reference continues to show up in Google searches and probably will stay there indefinitely. I have been forced to monitor Google references to me to try to control the damage that has been inflicted as a result of the responses to my blog.

Somebody here suggested I grow a pair. Please know that I'm a real person, a father with children, in a professional position, who has faced far more difficult circumstances than this. For example, one of my children spent months in the hospital on one occasion. Any parent who has almost lost a child, or who has lost one, can understand that kind of challenge. This entire Dhamma Wheel matter is minor, downright trivial, compared to other things in life. I'm not losing my perspective about it. The suggestion keeps on coming up that I should just drop it, just go away, just stop, move on. I am doing that every moment, one moment at a time. I don't understand why we can't treat each other with respect and with an attitude of friendship.

Personally, I think any member should feel free to blog if they want to, and I think Dhamma Wheel, as the most-visited Buddhism discussion board, is a fit topic for a blog. And if a blog contains criticism, then what's the big deal? That's part of what blogs are sometimes about. I have acknowledged openly on that blog that I need to do a better job of avoiding negativity. If you happen to visit the blog please help me to achieve that goal by not adding to the negativity.

I'm not sure I want to go adding to the suggestion box right now. Given the situation, I don't think there's much that I can say, positive or negative, that will be helpful.
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:22 am

It's okay, Brother Jechbi, let it go. I understand to a degree your frustrations, and the Mods have agreed to listen and opened the option to criticize them openly in the suggestion box. If you no longer have the desire to, then maybe perhaps the need you had before to be heard has been fulfilled. :anjali: You're freer now, yes?
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby christopher::: » Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:46 am

Jechbi wrote:Please know that I'm a real person, a father with children, in a professional position, who has faced far more difficult circumstances than this. For example, one of my children spent months in the hospital on one occasion. Any parent who has almost lost a child, or who has lost one, can understand that kind of challenge. This entire Dhamma Wheel matter is minor, downright trivial, compared to other things in life. I'm not losing my perspective about it. The suggestion keeps on coming up that I should just drop it, just go away, just stop, move on. I am doing that every moment, one moment at a time. I don't understand why we can't treat each other with respect and with an attitude of friendship.


So sorry to hear about your child. Yeah, that's the real hard stuff that is much more difficult to find ease with, we can't stop caring when something happens to those we love. I dunno. This is indeed a trivial matter in comparison. I guess my point (perspective) is that dropping it is how we treat each other with respect and an attitude of friendship. Dropping it is how a sense of peace and calm will arise for you.

Once long ago I got into an argument with my father and a very good friend. The two of them were in agreement and i found myself feeling very much alone. I went on and on trying to explain my perspective when my friend said, "Chris you think too much." That really pissed me off and i remember going down into our basement in a rage, feeling so abandoned and alone, these two who I cared about lined up against me.

And then suddenly it hit me, she was right, and I let the thoughts go. Then the emotions just evaporated and I heard the sounds of the house, walked back up the stairs, sat down with the two of them and they were smiling, laughing. We shared some beer, moved on to other topics, the moment and incident was then forever gone, history.

Thirty years later i still remember that experience of letting go, but haven't the faintest memory of what we were arguing about.

:hug:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:18 am

Greetings Jechbi,

Clearly you feel there are grievances unresolved about how things work here - would it help you to frame each as a suggestion in the Suggestion Box?

We can all work them through, one at a time. It is still "healthy, collaborative Dhamma discussion" you're after isn't it? If so, here's your chance.

Sure beats throwing stones from over the fence, doesn't it? :thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:23 am

Jechbi wrote:I truly believe that if I had created suggestion-box entries with my concerns, they would have been made invisible, and I would have received warnings from the mods not to do that again. Folks reading this thread have no idea what went on behind the scenes. Some of the responses I received from the mod/admin team were very inflamatory.
As I said to you before, your complaints here where given more time an consideration by the staff than anyone else's. The one thing that really is not evident in your portrayal of all this is a genuine acknowledgement what you yourself have contributed to all of this. You lodged two formal complaints, they are carefully considered and respond to in writing, but not liking the results, you did not let it go.

I created the blog because I was shut down here again and again. I wanted to have a place where I could put a legitimate post and make it visible if it was taken down. And I wanted a place where other people could do the same thing, if they faced the same problems I encountered. It's effortless to create a blog these days, so it was a matter of just a few minutes to set it up and post it. And voila, there was my post that Dhamma Wheel had made invisible.
The blog was more than just a place to post "invisibled" postings, it was also a place to severely criticize me and all my naughty doings. You felt that I treated you badly, slighted, you, did not take your seriously. But in none of this do I see you taking any responsibility for anything that happened. Mistakes were made in both directions.

Also -- and here is the real question in all of this and there is none other -- why do you care what I think about you? I don''t know you and you do not know me. If I treated you badly, that reflects upon me and says nothing about you. Why would you want to own that to the extent that you have put all this energy into it? All these hurt feelings, all this turmoil.

The blog became negative mostly as a result of the overwhelmingly hostile and personal responses that were posted there by others. Take a look and you'll see what I mean. I tried to meet every insult, every accusation, with an attitude of friendship and gratitude.
This could be gone through in detail, but life is way too short for this, but if the readers here are going to read anything, this entry and the subsequent discussion by the Dhamma Wheel staff to it:

http://dhammawheel.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... nary-tale/

which was then followed by this blog entry:

http://dhammawheel.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... eadership/

These two say it all. In light of this, your continual refrain of "I say nice things about the staff and Dhamma Wheel" rings hollow, doing you no justice, but I don't think you see/hear that.

No one has been faultless here. It has been, like many life lessons, unpleasant. Hang onto all of this as you wish, Jechbi; that is your choice. I am moving on.

Now, one other thing, contrary to what you might think, your postings here are welcome. I think maybe you now have a better idea of how to deal with what you see as problems and that things are not not always going to be resolved as you would like. If you really want to change Dhamma Wheel for the better, your negative blogging is not the way to do it. Your participation as an active member would serve a far better function in that.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby PeterB » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:16 am

I find it fascinating that if we put Jechbi's and the mods' posts to one side..the main inpout on this thread is from two non Theravadins and one person who is uninterested in the Suttas.

Very revealing all round.
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby Annapurna » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:34 am

Dear all, Jechbi, Tilt,

what makes me happy is that you are all COMMUNICATING!

And, that the conversation is taking place here again, and so civilized!

This is an outstanding process and success, that I am happy to witness.

I am sure that if you keep up your efforts to remove all past bitterness from your minds, by talking to each other and by UNDERSTANDING each other, you will be able to create very auspicious conditions for the future.

And, to add something personal:

I too had issues here at times. I am easily hurt by any harshness I may receive or imagine to receive, and I have usually had the strenght to go to somebody with it, and I am very happy to say that I always found open arms to do so.

Maybe this is a poetic way to describe online conversations, but hey, I am an artist, and a female, which ALSO makes it easier to communicate with the male leadership here.

It may be much harder amongst men....

I'm grateful for the considerate replies I am receiving after showing my pain, and you're all in my heart.

Thank you.

May it happen for everybody here!
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby Jechbi » Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:36 am

Thanks, Christopher. I think "dropping it" is advice that could equally apply to others as well as to myself. The process of "dropping it" happens in this moment, and it's difficult to know whether another person has "dropped it" or not. I think we all need to keep on practicing "dropping it" until there is nothing else to drop.

Thanks Retro for the invitation.

Thanks Tilt for your comment.

tiltbillings wrote:Also -- and here is the real question in all of this and there is none other -- why do you care what I think about you? I don''t know you and you do not know me. If I treated you badly, that reflects upon me and says nothing about you. Why would you want to own that to the extent that you have put all this energy into it? All these hurt feelings, all this turmoil.

I felt that it would be worthwhile to say something that might improve Dhamma discussion. I felt that probably, I was not the only person who had these types of experiences, and because I value what Dhamma Wheel was trying to do, I thought it would be helpful to speak up. I don't think I was motivated by hurt feelings, but I'm certainly sorry if I have caused some. To answer your question, I don't care too much about what you think about me, but I do care a little, because I do feel as if we know each other at least to some extent through our Dhamma discussions. But you're correct that it doesn't really matter what you think about me. There's a great Lojong slogan: Of the two witnesses, trust the principle one. I was trying, in my own clumsy way, to be helpful.

tiltbillings wrote:... your continual refrain of "I say nice things about the staff and Dhamma Wheel" rings hollow, doing you no justice, but I don't think you see/hear that.

I do see and hear that. I appreciate and respect your point of view, and I will try harder.

Annapurna, I agree that it's good to listen to each other.

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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:31 am

I read what you wrote, and you never really address the points put to you. Always seems as if you are just trying to dodge the blow rather than dealing straight on with what is said to you. Whatever your intent has been, there have been enough folks who have indicated that they do not see it in what you have written on your blog. That really should tell you something.

From your blog:

http://dhammawheel.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... concealed/

You get this reply to this problematic blog entry:

Mindyourmind says:
March 2, 2011 at 5:32 am
So this entire blog is created and maintained for seemingly the sole reason to grind your axe against Dhamma Wheel.

How odd. How sad.


And you reply:

Thank you for your comment. No, that is not the sole reason for the blog. There are other entries here unrelated to Dhamma Wheel. And I am not trying to “grind an ax” or anything like that. I was trying to make thoughtful comments about how to improve Dhamma discussion. The result has been an avalanche of negative reactions to what I have said.

Look at this post, for example. I began with praise for Dhamma Wheel. Then I noted that my sig is no longer accessible to me. That’s all. Then look at the comments that followed. Blistering comments. That has been the pattern on this blog.

You are always welcome to visit here, Andre, but I ask that you keep an open mind. Thank you.
The key piece of this is: I was trying to make thoughtful comments about how to improve Dhamma discussion. The result has been an avalanche of negative reactions to what I have said. But you take no real responsibility for the negative spinning of Dhamma Wheel that is evident in that very blog entry and the sharply negative comments and negative spinning that characterizes so much of what you have said about Dhamma Wheel, undercutting all the nice things you said, which, then, the nice stuff simply reads as a way of trying to mitigate your negativity. Rather than having these negative entries sit there festering, maybe it is time for all those negative entries to simply go away without bargaining, without preconditions; maybe it is time for you move on from all that and start anew. Please.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby Annapurna » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:30 am

tiltbillings wrote:I read what you wrote, and you never really address the points put to you. Always seems as if you are just trying to dodge the blow rather than dealing straight on with what is said to you.



Dear Sir Tilt,

Please forgive me when I don't comment on some of the wisdom you shared and only pick out a tiny detail :

What I once learned from a colleague was:

"Don't worry about your ability to counsel someone else: You will be able to see his mistakes much better than he will, and much easier than your own, and vice versa."

And it's true!

While I am at times literally blind for my own suboptimal expressions, I see them in others much easier.

If I now show you, in all due respect, a piece that you can improve, I am aware that I can see yours better than mine, and ask you to counsel me as well, when you notice something, that I can improve on!

In blue is something psychologists recommend to avoid in discussions or arguments:

"always" and "never".

I read what you wrote, and you never really address the points put to you. Always seems as if you are just trying to dodge the blow


Why do they recommend to avoid it? Because it's not true. Nobody does something always or never.
"Often, frequently, sometimes", yes.

But anybody will KNOW in the depths of their hearts that they are falsely accused when this comes, and it creates bitterness and protest.

I'm sure I make worse 'mistakes' than you, dear Sir...... ;)

And as Bob Ross says: We don't make mistakes, we have happy little accidents!

:anjali:
Last edited by Annapurna on Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:34 am

Annapurna wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I read what you wrote, and you never really address the points put to you. Always seems as if you are just trying to dodge the blow rather than dealing straight on with what is said to you.



Dear Sir Tilt,

What I once learned from a colleague was:

"Don't worry about your ability to counsel someone else: You will be able to see his mistakes much better than he will, and much easier than your own, and vice versa."

And it's true!

While I am at times literally blind for my own suboptimal expressions, I see them in others much easier.

If I now show you, in all due respect, a piece that you can improve, I am aware that I can see yours better than mine, and ask you to counsel me as well, when you notice something, that I can improve on!

In blue is something psychologists recommend to avoid in discussions or arguments:

"always" and "never".

I read what you wrote, and you never really address the points put to you. Always seems as if you are just trying to dodge the blow


Why do they recommend to avoid it? Because it's not true. Nobody does something always or never.
"Often, frequently, sometimes", yes.

But anybody will KNOW in the depths of their hearts that they are falsely accused when this comes, and it creates bitterness and protest.

I'm sure I make worse 'mistakes' than you, dear Sir...... ;)

And as Bob Ross says: We don't make mistakes, we have happy little accidents!

:anjali:
Thanks. I am well aware of using such phrasing and very often do. I chose my words very carefully.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby Annapurna » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:37 am

And you taught me a new word:

"Phrasing".

Thank you. :smile:
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby appicchato » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:57 am

I guess it comes with the territory...Dhamma Wheel. since it's inception, rolled along really well, 2010 was a good year...now, however, the bickering has come out of the woodwork (not only from one side)...if I were asked, I'd say give it a rest...nothing good, seen from this angle, is to be gained going forward from this point...just one person's observation, and feeling, I imagine, that's all...six months down the pike, will it really matter?...hopefully not...

Be well.. :popcorn:
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby Annapurna » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:00 am

I just thought the same.

How about giving it a breather for 4 weeks?
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:03 pm

It will pass.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby Annapurna » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:19 pm

Something I need to say:

It's super that DW encourages such an open discussion! :heart:
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby Jechbi » Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:28 pm

tiltbillings wrote:But you take no real responsibility for the negative spinning of Dhamma Wheel that is evident in that very blog entry and the sharply negative comments and negative spinning that characterizes so much of what you have said about Dhamma Wheel, undercutting all the nice things you said, which, then, the nice stuff simply reads as a way of trying to mitigate your negativity. Rather than having these negative entries sit there festering, maybe it is time for all those negative entries to simply go away without bargaining, without preconditions; maybe it is time for you move on from all that and start anew. Please.

Thanks, Tilt. I do take responsibility for this. It's difficult to write any kind of commentary without bringing one's own "spin" into it. Perhaps you have had this same experience at times in your own postings. It's not necessarily a bad thing. Also, that's often what blogs are about: personal perspectives.

Tilt, it's not the negative entries that are sitting there festering. The only thing that can fester is something within ourselves. As you have invited me to drop it, I also invite you to do the same, if that will be helpful for you.

Please allow me to take up your kind offer to contact you by PM, and let me see we can work this out. I'm open to the idea of taking certain things down if they are not helpful.
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:32 pm

appicchato wrote:I guess it comes with the territory...Dhamma Wheel. since it's inception, rolled along really well, 2010 was a good year...now, however, the bickering has come out of the woodwork (not only from one side)...if I were asked, I'd say give it a rest...nothing good, seen from this angle, is to be gained going forward from this point...just one person's observation, and feeling, I imagine, that's all...six months down the pike, will it really matter?...hopefully not...

Be well.. :popcorn:
.

:goodpost:
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:18 pm

Jechbi wrote: . . . .
And so you make my point about your responses being non-responsive.

On your blog, in response to mindyourmind's lengthy statement (which is worth reading for those following this thread)

http://dhammawheel.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... concealed/

you state: This post, in which you are commenting, was supposed to be dominated by praise for Dhamma Wheel, for their openness in publicly acknowledging this blog. Obviously, people are not seeing the praise. You really don't seem to get it. The praise is rendered meaningless by the ongoing negativity of what you are saying. Also, you really did not respond to mindyourmind; you, again, offered another justification for what you are doing. There is no dialogue in that.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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