Bangkok Post Writer's endless acidity

[DNS]

The monks there, apart from not keeping many other Vinaya rules, have also been known to be sexually attracted to "Phra Farang" and one monk has experienced that type of assault. . . . So be careful where you go...

Wow, that is pretty bad. I have heard some bad things and about some of the corruption, but assault is really bad.

I have not heard of any scandals among the communities of monks and nuns that have sprouted-up in non-Buddhist lands, but in defense of the Asian communities, they have been around a lot longer than those in the U.S., UK, Australia, for example.

Also, perhaps there are too many monks in some of these Asian countries? I think there is something like 300,000 monks or more in Thailand. Does the country really need that many? I probably would rather see fewer numbers, but with greater quality (like the monks we have here at DW who study, meditate, know the Dhamma-Vinaya, follow the Dhamma-Vinaya, and teach the Dhamma-Vinaya). When the numbers are too high (of anything) then there is a greater likelihood of corrupt people joining or even criminal acts.

[Ngawang Drolma.]

Many say they have noticed a stark increase in the number of "katoey" novices who show little restraint in expressing themselves, including the use of cosmetics, the readjusting of robes for a fashionable look, and the public display of feminine gestures. Could this suggest rife sexual abuse of minors in the temple, too?

Has anyone actually witnessed first-hand this outright breakage of the 8th precept? It is difficult to believe that this occurs out in the open like that and that it would be tolerated by abbots/elder monks as well as temple benefactors.

How many "real" monks do we have left nowadays, given the widespread sex scandals, temple corruption and commercialisation of Buddhism?

This is a bit much. While it is true that these phenomena she mentioned occur, she seems to be suggesting that this is the majority and that is far from true. We should look foremost at the Sangha as the followers of the path who contribute to carrying on and spreading the Dhamma, and we should see them for the merit field that they are.

It would behoove myself and the rest of us to be mindful of this so that we will buck the societal trend of fault-finding in others, especially of others' Buddhist practice or the Sangha. It would be better if we were to spend more effort to address the faults that hinder our progress along the path the most...our own.

Agreed. It strikes me as a bit of sensationalism.

[christopher:::]

The Western monks at Wat Pah Nanachat, for example, are advised not to spend the night in typical village or town monasteries precisely for these kind of reasons. The monks there, apart from not keeping many other Vinaya rules, have also been known to be sexually attracted to "Phra Farang" and one monk has experienced that type of assault. The fact that such things go on in monasteries which function as schools for young novices who have no interest to be in the robes in the first place surprises nobody anymore. I myself once had to stay in such a monastery-school in northern Thailand for one night (we made sure to lock the door well -- always recommended in Thai monasteries) and in the morning there was a used syringe with needle lying not far from out room so that I almost stepped on it. The novices had to be subjected to a certain amount of regimentation in that place in order to keep them under control. I heard pretty bad stories about study temples in Bangkok, in this particular case for Bangladeshi monks who are living there. There seems to be a rather dark scene among them (I know this from a somewhat naive laywoman who was cheated by one of them and lost quite a bit of money). So be careful where you go...

Wow, that is a problem, big problem. Here in Japan we have something different that's happened with Zen Buddhism and other schools. People don't send "troubled youth" to temples for training, but rather its the sons of Buddhist priests who are sent to carry on the family tradition, which in many cases has become more like a business. This leads to a similar situation in that many of those training to become the central figures in Buddhism are often not truly motivated by a deep and sincere desire to understand and realize the dharma.

How can this be addressed?

[cooran]

There are always bad monks, and those who publicise it. Don't join the latter yourself.

Hi Chris,

Are you saying that monastic corruption shouldn't be revealed? If so, I find this view to be harmful to the monastic institution. In practice, it is "co-dependent" that those who see corruption in the institution shouldn't speak it out loud...which simply enables it to spread further and makes it seem "normal".

Hello Pink, all,

Exactly what good do you think you are doing by anonymously gossiping about unknown bhikkhus on the internet for thousands to read, about supposed happenings mentioned in a newspaper of a country far away?

My take is ~ If you personally observe wrong doing by a bhikkhu, which contravenes the law of the country, or breaches the vinaya ~ there are channels to take it further. "Oh, ain't it awful" chatting on an internet group isn't one of these channels - it simply incurs akusala kamma for the participants.

The Buddha taught:
"There are these ten topics of [proper] conversation. Which ten? Talk on modesty, on contentment, on seclusion, on non-entanglement, on arousing persistence, on virtue, on concentration, on discernment, on release, and on the knowledge & vision of release. These are the ten topics of conversation. If you were to engage repeatedly in these ten topics of conversation, you would outshine even the sun & moon, so mighty, so powerful — to say nothing of the wanderers of other sects."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and

"When you have gathered you have two duties: either Dhamma-talk or noble silence."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
Chris

[gavesako]

That is true, but also compare this statement by the Buddha:

"The Dhamma and the Vinaya proclaimed by the Tathagata shine forth when they are displayed, and not when they are concealed."


And:

Brahmajala Sutta

The sutta starts with the Buddha travelling with his disciples between the cities of Rajagaha and Nalanda. At the same time, a brahmin called Suppiya, with his young apprentice, Brahmadatta, were also travelling in the same direction, tailing the convoy of the sangha. Suppiya uttered some insulting words about the Buddha, his teachings, and his disciples. However, Brahmadatta praised and revered the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. The two continued debating until they arrived at the King's resting place in Ambalatthika.

Hearing this conversation, some monks discussed the nature of conflicting students and teachers the next morning. They wondered how marvellous it was that the Buddha knew the various kinds of views to be found in people. The Buddha arrived and asked what they were discussing. As a monk finished telling him, the Buddha responded, "Monks, if anyone spoke words which insult me, the Dhamma, and the Sangha, don't let this thing prompt you to hate, take revenge, and turn against them. If, because of this, you become angry or annoyed, then it will become an obstacle in your quest to liberate yourself, and cause you upset. However, if someone speaks insulting or false accusations about me, the Dhamma, and the Sangha, then you should state which is wrong and point out the mistake by explaining that because of this proof and that, then that is not true, or it is not like that, that kind of thing is not us, or occurring in us.".

"But if someone praises me, the Dhamma, or the Sangha; don't let this thing make you feel proud, joyful, and happy. If you act like that, then it will become an obstacle in your efforts to achieve your own final liberation. If someone speaks like that, you should state which is right and show the fact by saying, 'Based upon this and that fact, it is indeed so; that thing does indeed exist in us, or is true about us.' Even only due to small matters, worthless, or even due to the Precepts (Sila)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmajala_Sutta_(Theravada" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

[pink_trike]

Hi Chris,

Talk on modesty, on contentment, on seclusion, on non-entanglement, on arousing persistence, on virtue, on concentration, on discernment, on release, and on the knowledge & vision of release.

Imo,this is conversation about virtue and discernment. It is also about protecting something that we all have a stake in. The institution of Buddhism is charged with preserving the Dharma. How can we trust that it will remain preserved in a container that isn't effectively dealing with it's own creeping rot?

My take is ~ If you personally observe wrong doing by a bhikkhu, which contravenes the law of the country, or breaches the vinaya ~ there are channels to take it further.

What channels are these? The Thai Police? Those abbots who turn a blind eye to corruption?

Exactly what good do you think you are doing by anonymously gossiping about unknown bhikkhus on the internet for thousands to read, about supposed happenings mentioned in a newspaper of a country far away?

By labeling concerns about institutionalized corruption as "gossip" and "Oh, ain't it awful", and confidently naming it as akusala kamma, it seems as if you may be diminutizing and ridiculing the legitimate concerns that are shared by many Dharma practitioners where ever there are Buddhist institutions that are revealing corruption - particularly Thailand, Nepal, England, and the U.S.

Would you prefer that I mention known bhikhus? I could, but I haven't finished thinking that through yet. I'd like to hear your thoughts on what kind of harm there is to the Dharma from wide-spread awareness of this institutional issue?

of a country far away

The country of Thailand isn't very "far away" for me, aand it will likely become "my" meat-space country in the not too distant future. It's arguable if there even is a "far away" on Planet Earth in the 21st century, especially here in the cyber-realm.

---

The Catholic Church also believes that the priesthood shouldn't suffer the eye of parishioner's scrutiny and commentary. A couple decades ago when evidence of corruption began to reach the public realm, the Vatican went so far as to covertly instruct the priesthood to tell their parishioners not to discuss the church's dirty laundry in public or even among themselves. Some priests were punished for not obeying. Some priests subtly or bluntly tied speaking out to the possibility of being divinely punished when talking with parishioners. Older parishioners tended to obey and attempted to silence others who spoke out. It's a good thing that many parishioners ignored them and refused to keep the secret.

Corruption festering in the dark become uglier over time. Why depend on the corrupt to bring light to the situation? It isn't as if the spread of monastic corruption in Thailand is in doubt - its been obvious and growing for a couple of decades. The mind state of "religiosity" is a defilement of the mind that aids and abets the corruption. The institution of Zen in the West (San Francisco Zen Center) also went down this path of denial, as did Trungpa Rinpoche's organization - but thankfully for both, the Sangha demanded accountability and transparency and went to the media to get it. Now the San Francisco Zen Center is a model of openness, and Vajradhatu institution (now known as Shamhala International) is making good progress that is still mired in stifling religiosity. It was a very difficult path, even painful for many - but it was necessary. What doesn't grow dies.

It's a new "open source" world - one that demands public accountability and transparency. Institutions that resist and refuse to become transparent will likely end up on the dust heap of history, filed under "obsolete, static religious institutions". I hope that the institution of Buddhism isn't one of them as a result of institutional denial, social habits that exempt monastics/monasteries from critical feedback, and practitioner's resistance to looking corruption spang in the eye and publicly acknowledging it.

I'm surprised that the Sangha even has to have this conversation in the 21st century.

"When you have gathered you have two duties: either Dhamma-talk or noble silence."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A little more context:

"It isn't right, monks, that sons of good families, on having gone forth out of faith from home to the homeless life, should talk on such a topic. When you have gathered you have two duties: either Dhamma-talk or noble silence."

The roles, rules, and responsibility of those who have gone forth and those who are laity are different.

[pink_trike]

Regarding Thailand:
Have you seen that Sanitsuda - an aging writer at the Bangkok Post

hm...this could be easily interpreted as "acidity" and "bitter" from a certain angle.

[nathan]

I think everyone who has posted has contributed valuable perspective to the discussion. I plan on going very soon. Look forward to positive experiences and in terms of negative ones forewarned is forearmed so much thanks all. Sad to hear Laos is unfavorable, I hear it is quite beautiful. How about ordination in Sri Lanka? Still good? Worked out well for many westerners in the past. I am more confident of finding a one of the better kinds of circumstances in Thailand thanks to much online support. I think the potential for good training with virtuous and competent teachers still looks positive and even more approachable now.

metta Thailand, all

[pink_trike]

One of my teachers highly recommended Myanmar, although I'm not sure why he said that...I didn't think such a thing was possible for Westerners there.