Working at a Glock factory?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Training of Sila, the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).

Working at a Glock factory?

Postby Phoenix1991 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:07 am

Hi everyone!

Sorry for bursting in here like that without introducing myself - I'm just in a hurry (I'll definitely do that later though :-) ).

I'm desperately seeking a job, it's incredibly hard to find one and I'm also in a hurry because I'm under pressure by our employment office, but I'm not sure whether working at a Glock factory could be considered particularly skillful? Right livelihood means not trading with weapons and earning your living with peaceful means, but - I need a job; some job.

What do you think about this?

:namaste:
"Anyone who keeps the ability to see beauty never grows old." - Franz Kafka
"Not until we are lost do we begin to understand ourselves." - Henry David Thoreau
User avatar
Phoenix1991
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:58 am
Location: Carinthia, AUT

Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby pilgrim » Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:22 am

Working at a weapons factory would be way down my list of preferences. But I would take the job if there is little choice and I need the employment. However, even so, I would avoid working in any dept that has a direct input to the production line, testing, packing, selling etc. Acceptable divisions could be support functions like accounts, cleaning, food, human resources, adminstration and so on.
User avatar
pilgrim
 
Posts: 944
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby Mawkish1983 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:25 am

I think you just have to decide what kamma you are happy to be the heir to.

Edit to correct minor typing error.
Mawkish1983
 
Posts: 1175
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Essex, UK

Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby Phoenix1991 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:52 am

Yeah, it's WAY down my list of preferences too. I don't like the thought of having to work there at all. :thinking:
"Anyone who keeps the ability to see beauty never grows old." - Franz Kafka
"Not until we are lost do we begin to understand ourselves." - Henry David Thoreau
User avatar
Phoenix1991
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:58 am
Location: Carinthia, AUT

Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby pilgrim » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:13 am

There seems to be a kind of "exception" ( for lack of a more appropriate word) on Right Livelihood if your mind is free or relatively free from defilements. See Dhammapada 124 and its commentary. Not that I recommend the job but if you find yourself in it, you may wish to bear this in mind.
User avatar
pilgrim
 
Posts: 944
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby PeterB » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:19 am

Phoenix1991 wrote:Hi everyone!

Sorry for bursting in here like that without introducing myself - I'm just in a hurry (I'll definitely do that later though :-) ).

I'm desperately seeking a job, it's incredibly hard to find one and I'm also in a hurry because I'm under pressure by our employment office, but I'm not sure whether working at a Glock factory could be considered particularly skillful? Right livelihood means not trading with weapons and earning your living with peaceful means, but - I need a job; some job.

What do you think about this?

:namaste:

From a Buddhist position its a definite no-no.
PeterB
 
Posts: 3903
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby pilgrim » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:30 am

I wouldn't take a black and white approach to this. In the modern world of the mega-corporations the grey areas have become a lot larger. I work in a plc that is mostly in property and hotels. That means somewhere in there, there is also sale of liquor. But I am not directly involved in it.

I'm aware there may not be many such areas in a Glock factory. But it depends how distant your work is from the actual production and sale of weapons. How desperate are you ? if the work is actually on the production line, how long will it take before you can get another job? Having a little money and being in a position to do some good with it is preferable to being homeless or desperate.
User avatar
pilgrim
 
Posts: 944
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby PeterB » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:56 am

I would take an absolute black and white approach to this.
I am not about to go all relativistic when discussing SOMEONE ELSES kamma-vipaka.
PeterB
 
Posts: 3903
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby Annapurna » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:00 pm

Phoenix1991 wrote:Hi everyone!

Sorry for bursting in here like that without introducing myself - I'm just in a hurry (I'll definitely do that later though :-) ).

I'm desperately seeking a job, it's incredibly hard to find one and I'm also in a hurry because I'm under pressure by our employment office, but I'm not sure whether working at a Glock factory could be considered particularly skillful? Right livelihood means not trading with weapons and earning your living with peaceful means, but - I need a job; some job.

What do you think about this?

:namaste:


What's your qualification?

I'm sure you can find a kitchen, pizza delivery, messenger, garbage job...? Wood chuck? Farm hand?

Putting weapons together is uncool and I think the unemploment office must respect religious limitations.
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/
User avatar
Annapurna
 
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby Lazy_eye » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:16 pm

But perhaps, as Pilgrim wrote above, it depends on what you would actually be doing for them. I don't see that being a janitor at a Glock factory would be as problematic as working on the production line. And even working on the production line isn't as uncool as being involved in marketing and sales (where you are actively working to persuade people to buy lethal weapons).

Relativism is inevitable when talking about such matters because all human endeavors, outside of the monastic life at least, generate kamma to some degree, no?
User avatar
Lazy_eye
 
Posts: 812
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:23 pm
Location: Laurel, MD

Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby PeterB » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:26 pm

I think the idea is to reduce rather than increase negative Vipaka.
And working in an arms factory is guaranteed to increase negative karma vipaka...just as surely as being a slaughterman. Or drug dealer.
PeterB
 
Posts: 3903
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby andre9999 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:27 pm

PeterB wrote:I would take an absolute black and white approach to this.


No doubt.
User avatar
andre9999
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:04 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI, US

Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby PeterB » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:29 pm

None.
PeterB
 
Posts: 3903
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby andre9999 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:04 pm

Nein.
User avatar
andre9999
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:04 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI, US

Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby PeterB » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:10 pm

Neit.
PeterB
 
Posts: 3903
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby kirk5a » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:13 pm

Phoenix1991 wrote:Hi everyone!

Sorry for bursting in here like that without introducing myself - I'm just in a hurry (I'll definitely do that later though :-) ).

I'm desperately seeking a job, it's incredibly hard to find one and I'm also in a hurry because I'm under pressure by our employment office, but I'm not sure whether working at a Glock factory could be considered particularly skillful? Right livelihood means not trading with weapons and earning your living with peaceful means, but - I need a job; some job.

What do you think about this?

:namaste:

It sounds to me like you are trying to follow the Buddha's teachings on right livelihood and so you're already conflicted about the weapons factory. So I think you can probably see how this would set up waves of doubt and inner conflict about your job, if you did take it. Hold out for something there isn't any inner conflict about. That will be worth a lot for your peace of mind.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
User avatar
kirk5a
 
Posts: 1753
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby Jhana4 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:20 pm

Phoenix1991 wrote:I'm desperately seeking a job, it's incredibly hard to find one and I'm also in a hurry because I'm under pressure by our employment office, but I'm not sure whether working at a Glock factory could be considered particularly skillful? Right livelihood means not trading with weapons and earning your living with peaceful means, but - I need a job; some job.

What do you think about this?


Have you talked to the agency about having religious issues with working in such a place?

Have you considered taking the job only temporarily while you look for another job?

I'm not a gun expert, but Glocks are handguns. The biggest market for glocks are Police Officers and people buying a gun to keep in a drawer for home protection. Criminals and psychopathic right wingers looking to gun down congresswomen will be buying other types of gun and criminals will be buying illegal ( stolen or smuggled ) guns.

The last point you should consider is rhetorical. It only matters what you think about this issue. Are you asking for a clarification of what is written in the Pali Canon or are you looking for a feeling of approval from others here?
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
 
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby kirk5a » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:33 pm

Jhana4 wrote:Criminals and psychopathic right wingers looking to gun down congresswomen will be buying other types of gun and criminals will be buying illegal ( stolen or smuggled ) guns.

Hm. Except the weapon used in the shooting of congresswoman Giffords was "reported to be a 9mm Glock 19 semi-automatic pistol with a 33-round magazine".

Just sayin. Couldn't help but research that claim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Tucson_shooting
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
User avatar
kirk5a
 
Posts: 1753
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby Jhana4 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:22 pm

I didn't know that, I heard it was an automatic weapon, which I assumed was machine gun.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
 
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby Phoenix1991 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:40 pm

pilgrim wrote:There seems to be a kind of "exception" ( for lack of a more appropriate word) on Right Livelihood if your mind is free or relatively free from defilements. See Dhammapada 124 and its commentary. Not that I recommend the job but if you find yourself in it, you may wish to bear this in mind.

Thank you!
Well, I certainly don't want to work at an arms factory. I don't want to take part in the production of any part of a weapon.


Annapurna wrote:What's your qualification?

I'm sure you can find a kitchen, pizza delivery, messenger, garbage job...? Wood chuck? Farm hand?

Putting weapons together is uncool and I think the unemploment office must respect religious limitations.

I graduated from a commercial school. This qualifies me for offices, the retail sector, banks and so on. I'm mostly looking for employment in the retail sector, because chances of getting into an office or bank are close to zero in these times - not that I'm particularly keen on a job at a bank either.
I worked at McDonald's for a week, but the working conditions were awful - I literally had nightmares about the job each day of the week and I couldn't arrange it with my transportation opportunities either, so I had to leave.
I'm by now also looking for a part-time job. It would be better than nothing and it would get me away from the employment office. :shrug: Unfortunately my options are still very limited considering where I live; I don't yet have my driving licence (working on it).

Well, that same employment office once wanted to put a vegetarian whom I know into a butchery. She flat-out refused though. :)

I talked to the course instructor today and she said it's okay, if I keep looking for another job instead of applying at the Glock factory. Phew! :twothumbsup:


kirk5a wrote:It sounds to me like you are trying to follow the Buddha's teachings on right livelihood and so you're already conflicted about the weapons factory. So I think you can probably see how this would set up waves of doubt and inner conflict about your job, if you did take it. Hold out for something there isn't any inner conflict about. That will be worth a lot for your peace of mind.

Peace of mind would be the absolutely last thing that job would give me.


Jhana4 wrote:Have you considered taking the job only temporarily while you look for another job?
[...]
The last point you should consider is rhetorical. It only matters what you think about this issue. Are you asking for a clarification of what is written in the Pali Canon or are you looking for a feeling of approval from others here?

I only considered it as a temporary solution in the first place.

I wanted to know what the Pali Canon says to that and talk it through with people who know what I'm talking about (which is sth neither, for example, my parents nor my course instructors qualify for) and hear their interpretations.


kirk5a wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:Criminals and psychopathic right wingers looking to gun down congresswomen will be buying other types of gun and criminals will be buying illegal ( stolen or smuggled ) guns.

Hm. Except the weapon used in the shooting of congresswoman Giffords was "reported to be a 9mm Glock 19 semi-automatic pistol with a 33-round magazine".

All weapons can potenially be sold illegally and get into the wrong hands. So can and do Glock pistols (among other cases there was a big scandal a few years ago about Glock pistols being present in big quantities on the black market in Iraq).


:namaste:
"Anyone who keeps the ability to see beauty never grows old." - Franz Kafka
"Not until we are lost do we begin to understand ourselves." - Henry David Thoreau
User avatar
Phoenix1991
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:58 am
Location: Carinthia, AUT

Next

Return to Ethical Conduct

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests