Taking members seriously

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Taking members seriously

Postby Jechbi » Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:48 pm

I would suggest that members of the mod/admin team refrain from characterizing member posts as possibly just "jokes." From time to time, I have seen it happen that members who were trying to make a valid point from their perspective are told in-thread that it appeared they might just be joking. Here is one example.

I believe the mod/admin team sets the tone for the board. While it is generally positive, there are times when members of the mod/admin team appear to be needlessly dismissive of members. I believe the board would be better served if members of the mod/admin team would take better care not to use ridicule or dismissiveness in their posts.

Thank for listening.
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Re: Taking members seriously

Postby Jhana4 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:52 pm

I've only been here a few weeks. I've had posts of mine moved several times. I didn't like that. I also contacted the moderators about it. I have not found the moderators to be disrespectful to the members and I felt that they have taken me seriously.
Last edited by Jhana4 on Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: Taking members seriously

Postby PeterB » Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:58 pm

Just as we thought it safe to go back to the water the meta discussion sharks are circling again.
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Re: Taking members seriously

Postby Fede » Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:24 pm

I take it that was a joke Peter.

Just to clarify, of course..... :tongue:

I think sometimes people can take themselves too seriously, so that actually theuir utter seriousness is actually more laughable than a joke.

I am a Mod on three other forums.

it's a thankless task, and I'll tell you something else, jechbi:
Open criticism of Moderators is extremely bad form. Any critical comments should be confined to private messaging and relayed to the Moderators in question, away from forum discussion.
In my neck-of-the-woods, it's very bad etiquette to dis a mod in public.....
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

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Re: Taking members seriously

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:53 pm

Greetings,

PeterB wrote:Just as we thought it safe to go back to the water the meta discussion sharks are circling again.

Just to clarify, it's fine for it to be done via the Suggestion Box... because having it done here means that the topic in question isn't being derailed in the process.

Arguably your post is more a case of "meta-discussion" than this topic itself. :tongue:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: Taking members seriously

Postby PeterB » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:04 pm

Then please feel free to remove it Retro... :smile: :anjali:
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Re: Taking members seriously

Postby Mawkish1983 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:09 pm

If Alex (in your example) had/has a problem, it would be Alex's responsibility to raise that with the mods.

Not yours.
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Re: Taking members seriously

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:15 pm

Jechbi wrote:I would suggest that members of the mod/admin team refrain from characterizing member posts as possibly just "jokes." From time to time, I have seen it happen that members who were trying to make a valid point from their perspective are told in-thread that it appeared they might just be joking. Here is one example.
Who determines if it a valid point? But I engaged with Alex for pages, so I obviously did take what he said seriously, though significantly and seriously wrong. Also, quite seriously, at that time of the naughty post you linked, it was unclear if it was not an elaborate joke. It would not have been the first time being lead down a path by jokester like that..

I believe the mod/admin team sets the tone for the board. While it is generally positive, there are times when members of the mod/admin team appear to be needlessly dismissive of members. I believe the board would be better served if members of the mod/admin team would take better care not to use ridicule or dismissiveness in their posts.

Thank for listening.
The reality is that moderators are human beings; hardly perfect. Scour the forum for my bad doings.The above is, which I suspect, will be the first of many examples, but to what real end? I am afraid that you as a moral beacon have been seriously compromised by your negative blogging. But lay on, MacDuff.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
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Re: Taking members seriously

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:18 pm

Mawkish1983 wrote:If Alex (in your example) had/has a problem, it would be Alex's responsibility to raise that with the mods.

Not yours.
He could have done that, or other forum members could have - had they found fault - used the "report" function or PMs, which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Taking members seriously

Postby Mawkish1983 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:20 pm

tiltbillings wrote:...which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
Of course :)
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Re: Taking members seriously

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:22 pm

Greetings Jechbi,

Jechbi wrote:I would suggest that members of the mod/admin team refrain from characterizing member posts as possibly just "jokes." From time to time, I have seen it happen that members who were trying to make a valid point from their perspective are told in-thread that it appeared they might just be joking. Here is one example.

I don't find this example particularly convincing to be honest.

Tilt's account is factually correct. Tilt consulted with DW staff at the time, as to whether we thought Alex was genuine in his argument, or stringing us along. We thought he was probably serious, but no one was totally certain.

Jechbi wrote:I believe the board would be better served if members of the mod/admin team would take better care not to use ridicule or dismissiveness in their posts.

... and through proliferation, assumption, suspicion and distrust, you have made the massive leap from what is observed (and actually transpires) through to a trademark negative conclusion. Whilst your statement is true as far as it goes (yes, it's good to not ridicule or dismiss people, of course...), I believe the inference that the mod/admin group are prone to these behaviours is in error.

Jechbi, I can't help feeling that you're grasping to find evidence to support your pre-determined conspiratorial conclusions, rather than looking at the evidence that actually exists and drawing a sensible and rational conclusion from that. You seem to approach these discussions from the POV of wanting to prove your pre-existing theory, and then desperately hunting around the Internet to find evidence to support them. Personally I don't think that's a sound way to facilitate healthy and collaborative Dhamma discussion, do you?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: Taking members seriously

Postby andre9999 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:31 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Tilt consulted with DW staff at the time, as to whether we thought Alex was genuine in his argument, or stringing us along. We thought he was probably serious, but no one was totally certain.


I'm glad I'm not the only one. I wonder that when I end up in a discussion with Alex too (no offense Alex). :)
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Re: Taking members seriously

Postby Kim OHara » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:15 am

So Jechbi's *best* example of a mod making a "dismissive" comment to a member was a comment made (a) four months ago and (b) in genuine puzzlement?
I think that is more evidence, if any is needed, that the mods are generally fair and polite.
:shrug:
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Re: Taking members seriously

Postby Jechbi » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:57 am

Well this hasn't worked out very well so far.

To those who have criticized me for creating this suggestion, please be aware that DW invited me to do so. To those who say it is bad form, I disagree. If a member has a legitimate concern, from their perspective, about something occuring that appears to be counterproductive to the goals of the board, I don't see why a member should not be able to discuss it openly and respectfully.

And no, Kim, this is not my "best" example, it is just one example. I also experienced this type of response personally, and I've seen this type of response in other mod/admin posts from time to time. But I haven't kept a catalogue. I don't think it would be correct to fill the suggestion box with numerous examples, because then, based on experience, I might be accused of being "obsessed."

retrofuturist wrote:Jechbi, I can't help feeling that you're grasping to find evidence to support your pre-determined conspiratorial conclusions, rather than looking at the evidence that actually exists and drawing a sensible and rational conclusion from that. You seem to approach these discussions from the POV of wanting to prove your pre-existing theory, and then desperately hunting around the Internet to find evidence to support them. Personally I don't think that's a sound way to facilitate healthy and collaborative Dhamma discussion, do you?

Retro, that's not what I did. I accepted your invitation to create a suggestion-box entry with what I view as a legitimate suggestion, based on things I have witnessed happening on this board, and based on my personal experience. I thought this would be an opportunity to start fresh and follow your advice for how to discuss these things. I didn't expect that you'd once again bring out your “consiracy theory” dismissal strategy.

tiltbillings wrote:He could have done that, or other forum members could have - had they found fault - used the "report" function or PMs, which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

Yes, Tilt, but the problem is that when I use the report function, I'm met with additional ridicule, criticism and dismissiveness. I'm not saying this to be negative. I'm saying it as a statement of what I have directly experienced.

tiltbillings wrote:Who determines if it a valid point? But I engaged with Alex for pages, so I obviously did take what he said seriously, though significantly and seriously wrong. Also, quite seriously, at that time of the naughty post you linked, it was unclear if it was not an elaborate joke. It would not have been the first time being lead down a path by jokester like that..

It doesn't matter if it's a valid point or not. As a member of the mod/admin team, I feel you would better serve the goals of the board by refraining from making in-thread, dismissive statements like that.

One other thing to note: Having made this suggestion at DW's invitation, I now find that the tables are turned, and I am on the defensive, answering further criticism about myself. This, too, has been an ongoing pattern, and it is one of the things I have been concerned about.

I apologize to those who find this exchange offensive. I didn't think the discussion would go in this direction.

p.s., would someone please enable me to post my sig again? I still don't have access. Thank you.
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Re: Taking members seriously

Postby Mawkish1983 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:01 am

:roll:
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Re: Taking members seriously

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:19 am

Greetings Jechbi,

Jechbi wrote:p.s., would someone please enable me to post my sig again? I still don't have access. Thank you.

Strange... now I'm not seeing it there either.

I'll unlock your signature editing ability for now, update it and I'll relock it.

EDIT: Actually, your signature is showing up in your profile, just not in topic... I'll investigate. (update: let's see how it goes next time you post - PM me if it still doesn't work)

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: Taking members seriously

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:20 am

Jechbi wrote:. . . . .
Always with the spinning of how badly you were treated here, which is to say, this really is all about you.

tiltbillings wrote:He could have done that, or other forum members could have - had they found fault - used the "report" function or PMs, which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

Yes, Tilt, but the problem is that when I use the report function, I'm met with additional ridicule, criticism and dismissiveness. I'm not saying this to be negative. I'm saying it as a statement of what I have directly experienced.
Has it ever occurred to you that when you lodge a complaint, that when the complaint is adjudicated, but not to your liking, maybe you should just let it go rather than continuing to complain about it, which just gets annoying?

tiltbillings wrote:Who determines if it a valid point? But I engaged with Alex for pages, so I obviously did take what he said seriously, though significantly and seriously wrong. Also, quite seriously, at that time of the naughty post you linked, it was unclear if it was not an elaborate joke. It would not have been the first time being lead down a path by jokester like that..

It doesn't matter if it's a valid point or not. As a member of the mod/admin team, I feel you would better serve the goals of the board by refraining from making in-thread, dismissive statements like that.
That is your opinion that it was a dismissive statement, which I don't share and others seem not to share, but the only opinion that matters here is obviously yours? Do you really hear how you are coming across.

One other thing to note: Having made this suggestion at DW's invitation, I now find that the tables are turned, and I am on the defensive, answering further criticism about myself. This, too, has been an ongoing pattern, and it is one of the things I have been concerned about.
It might be worthwhile to seriously entertain the possibility that It might really have something to do with the way you are going about it.

p.s., would someone please enable me to post my sig again? I still don't have access. Thank you.
As I told you, in response to your unnecessary and negative blog entry about this issue of your signature, contact David or Retro
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Taking members seriously

Postby Jechbi » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:35 am

I was concerned that this would happen.

Tilt, your post is off topic.

One thing to clarify: The issue wasn't that I was unhappy with how the complaint was adjudicated. The issue is that after I made the complaint (in which I also cited examples of how others were treated, not just myself), things just got worse. And I continued to see responses to other members (not just me) that appeared to me not to support Dhamma discussion.

But why are we talking about that here, Tilt? You suggested that we continue that discussion by PM, and I have responded to your good suggestion.

As I understand it, this suggestion that I have placed here in the suggestion box has been rejected as invalid because I you believe I am wrong in my observation that the mod/admin team sometimes engages in ridicule and dismissiveness. That's fine. You are free to reject my suggestion.

p.s., thank you for enabling me to post a sig again. Also, in the middle of all this bickering, I would like to say something positive: It's great that you have allowed this suggestion to be posted, even if you view it as an invalid suggestion. Once the dust settles, I hope the very best for you and for this site.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: Taking members seriously

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:48 am

Jechbi wrote:I was concerned that this would happen.

Tilt, your post is off topic.
Not really.

One thing to clarify: The issue wasn't that I was unhappy with how the complaint was adjudicated. The issue is that after I made the complaint (in which I also cited examples of how others were treated, not just myself), things just got worse. And I continued to see responses to other members (not just me) that appeared to me not to support Dhamma discussion.
And this is the sort of thing you keep saying, and the moderation team looked at your ongoing complaints and they did not find them substantial, but for some reason you want Dhamma Wheel to be run according to your lights.

As I understand it, this suggestion that I have placed here in the suggestion box has been rejected as invalid because I you believe I am wrong in my observation that the mod/admin team sometimes engages in ridicule and dismissiveness. That's fine. You are free to reject my suggestion.
Well, your example, as has been pointed out to you was not a very good one, but the question is, why dredge up old stuff? It really serves no purpose. What would be functional would be, as soon as it happens, to report it, to draw attention to it, but also keep in mind, that your idea that moderators have to be held to some extraordinary standard has not been accepted to the team. All of us can be held accountable to the TOS as with any other member here.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Taking members seriously

Postby Annapurna » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:52 am

Jechbi wrote:I would suggest that members of the mod/admin team refrain from characterizing member posts as possibly just "jokes." From time to time, I have seen it happen that members who were trying to make a valid point from their perspective are told in-thread that it appeared they might just be joking. Here is one example.

I believe the mod/admin team sets the tone for the board. While it is generally positive, there are times when members of the mod/admin team appear to be needlessly dismissive of members. I believe the board would be better served if members of the mod/admin team would take better care not to use ridicule or dismissiveness in their posts.

Thank for listening.


Jechbi....PLEASE.

You are on a CRUSADE, trying to educate adults here, which is a lost battle before it even begins, but can easily create Don Quixotes!

:roll:
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