Thank you Jason, you understood what i was trying to get at since i am pretty bad at expressing my thoughts.
It is just that in trying to understand the concept of nirvana, of consciousness without a physical body is difficult for me to accept intellectually.
Is our desire part of us?
Re: Is our desire part of us?
For what it's worth, I think you expressed yourself just fine. It's just difficult to answer questions such as this using conventional language without it being misinterpreted, that's all.Lysander wrote:Thank you Jason, you understood what i was trying to get at since i am pretty bad at expressing my thoughts.
Well, in the Suttas, nibbana is defined as the end of suffering, the extinction of craving (AN 10.60), the extinguishing of greed, hatred and delusion (SN 38.1). Beyond that, it's open to interpretation (e.g., you can find some of my crazy, speculative thoughts about it here).It is just that in trying to understand the concept of nirvana, of consciousness without a physical body is difficult for me to accept intellectually.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).
leaves in the hand (Buddhist-related blog)
leaves in the forest (non-Buddhist related blog)
leaves in the hand (Buddhist-related blog)
leaves in the forest (non-Buddhist related blog)
-
- Posts: 1952
- Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
- Location: London, UK
Re: Is our desire part of us?
I think we often confuse 'desire' with 'intention'. If the body tells us it needs, food water etc- this does not mean that the ability to respond to that is a ..craving, for want of a better word. I find the word 'desire' confusing because it supposes we are attracted to something- that we are not free from that attraction. I would stick with the word tanha which simply means craving, then you have cetana, which means intention to do something- this can be with or without craving/tanha.
with metta
Matheesha
with metta
Matheesha
With Metta
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Re: Is our desire part of us?
With metta / dhammapal.Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:Here are some of the arguments these (inner) voices may propose, along with a few effective responses:
<snip>
Trying to change your desires is an attack on your very self. This argument works only if you give your sense of self — which is really just a grab bag of desires — more solidity than it deserves. You can turn the argument on its head by noting that since your "self" is a perpetually changing line-up of strategies for happiness, you might as well try changing it in a direction more likely to achieve true happiness.
From: Pushing the Limits: Desire & Imagination in the Buddhist Path by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
List of 150 Thanissaro Bhikkhu Facebook study groups on various topics
Thanissaro Bhikkhu's Dhamma Teaching Pure & Simple on MeWe the Facebook alternative
Thanissaro Bhikkhu on Karma & Rebirth on Blogger
Thanissaro Bhikkhu on Refreshing Breathing on Blogger
Thanissaro Bhikkhu on Equanimity on Blogger
Thanissaro Bhikkhu on the Ultimate Goal on Blogger
Thanissaro Bhikkhu's Dhamma Teaching Pure & Simple on MeWe the Facebook alternative
Thanissaro Bhikkhu on Karma & Rebirth on Blogger
Thanissaro Bhikkhu on Refreshing Breathing on Blogger
Thanissaro Bhikkhu on Equanimity on Blogger
Thanissaro Bhikkhu on the Ultimate Goal on Blogger
-
- Posts: 1952
- Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
- Location: London, UK
Re: Is our desire part of us?
Hi dhammapal,
Nice quote- I think Thanissaro is talking about stubbornness (ahankara?), another defilement we need to be aware of and remove. Also a positive quality 'the ability to take advice'/ease of instructing (suvaca) comes to mind.
With metta
Matheesha
Nice quote- I think Thanissaro is talking about stubbornness (ahankara?), another defilement we need to be aware of and remove. Also a positive quality 'the ability to take advice'/ease of instructing (suvaca) comes to mind.
With metta
Matheesha
With Metta
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
- josephcmabad
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:42 am
Re: Is our desire part of us?
how about impulsive emotions? sometimes emotions happens so fast and comes so strong i've already acted on it before i became aware of it.. seems so much a part of me.. how can i deal with that?
Re: Is our desire part of us?
Let's imagine. If you are a monkey who is fulled, not needing any food. But you see a coconut hanging on a coconut tree. And at the same time, one of your leg is hurt. What you do? You will continue climb on it, even though it's not needed, but you as a monkey thinks you need the coconut so that you will be satisfied. And you try and try and try. Kept on falling from the tree.
Monkey is an untrained/unskilful being.
(
Coconut is your desire
The tall coconut tree signifies your life
Your injury is wrong thoughts and ideas
Your trial keep on going is because of holding.)
Coconut is not the monkey, the monkey is not the coconut. But the monkey "thinks" he is/ he need the coconut. He need to suffer from falls from tall tree(life) and it's all because he holding up wrong thoughts, even though the monkey is full. He doesn't need a coconut because he can find foods from other places. Despite of having that injury, the monkey end up in a worse scenario.
Monkey is an untrained/unskilful being.
(
Coconut is your desire
The tall coconut tree signifies your life
Your injury is wrong thoughts and ideas
Your trial keep on going is because of holding.)
Coconut is not the monkey, the monkey is not the coconut. But the monkey "thinks" he is/ he need the coconut. He need to suffer from falls from tall tree(life) and it's all because he holding up wrong thoughts, even though the monkey is full. He doesn't need a coconut because he can find foods from other places. Despite of having that injury, the monkey end up in a worse scenario.
-
- Posts: 1952
- Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
- Location: London, UK
Re: Is our desire part of us?
Hi Joesphcmabad,josephcmabad wrote:how about impulsive emotions? sometimes emotions happens so fast and comes so strong i've already acted on it before i became aware of it.. seems so much a part of me.. how can i deal with that?
We develop the path, little by little , not all at once. When our mindfulness grows with time, even the 'impulses' are known when they arise. On the other hand we work (or should I say, samatha vipassana works) to remove strong defilements of the mind, gradually, so that they thin out.
These questions have two underlying assumptions:
1) desire/defilements cannot be removed, and are part of the mind/biological - (Buddhist view- the mind can function very well, in fact better, without these defilements.)
2) How we deal with the mind/emtions now, is all there is (Buddhist view- it is possible to 'step back' from these emotions using mindfulness, and use various methods outlined in the Buddhas teachings to work on these emotions, in a quite satisfying, non- critical manner.)
with metta
Matheesha
With Metta
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Re: Is our desire part of us?
Desire in itself is not bad. It's our attachment to desire...Lysander wrote:Hello there, I am new to Buddhism. I hope i can find a satisfactory answer for the question i have here.
Is the prescription for dealing with suffering, i.e. the renunciation of all worldly desires flawed? The desiring part of us -- call it eros, taṇhā, the id, the amygdala, or whatever you will -- is ultimately still a part of us. We are embodied beings, with physical cravings and wants. We can't disown our desires, because they are us.
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "
--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "
--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27848
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: Is our desire part of us?
Greetings Kusala,
One example I have heard, and I can't recall whether it's canonical or not, is the desire to cross a park.
[UPDATE: Nicholas found the sutta for me, it's here ]
I may desire to cross the park, but as long as I am not attached to that desire, I will not experience suffering because of any inability to achieve the desired outcome.
Metta,
Retro.
Would you mind potentially clarifying what you mean by this, perhaps with an example.Kusala wrote:Desire in itself is not bad. It's our attachment to desire...
One example I have heard, and I can't recall whether it's canonical or not, is the desire to cross a park.
[UPDATE: Nicholas found the sutta for me, it's here ]
I may desire to cross the park, but as long as I am not attached to that desire, I will not experience suffering because of any inability to achieve the desired outcome.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Is our desire part of us?
What is constantily changing can be called permanent, part of self?Lysander wrote:Hello there, I am new to Buddhism. I hope i can find a satisfactory answer for the question i have here.
Is the prescription for dealing with suffering, i.e. the renunciation of all worldly desires flawed? The desiring part of us -- call it eros, taṇhā, the id, the amygdala, or whatever you will -- is ultimately still a part of us. We are embodied beings, with physical cravings and wants. We can't disown our desires, because they are us.
Some abide in lust of desire like a spider in its web and they fell in it like a torrent, the wise leave the torrent behind and sorrow.
Abiding in desire and ignoring knowledged may create illusion. What you describe is a form of wrong view.
Some brahmanins believe that satisfying all their desires they can achieve peace, but they will achieve indiference to the pleasures but in due time it all begin again.
Re: Is our desire part of us?
My thoughts are that it's not a "prescription" where you "use" the renunciation to deal with suffering, but rather the insight that desire itself is suffering. For example, a bug bites and it itches, and scratching it feels good... but the better condition would be not having an itch in the first place. If you hold your breath for a long time, the first breath you take feels so good, but the better condition would be to not be deprived of oxygen in the first place. Desire creates a tension, one that is released when we obtain the object of desire, but the better condition would be to not desire in the first place. However this is not something that can be willed or forced, but realized through insight gained.Lysander wrote:Hello there, I am new to Buddhism. I hope i can find a satisfactory answer for the question i have here.
Is the prescription for dealing with suffering, i.e. the renunciation of all worldly desires flawed? The desiring part of us -- call it eros, taṇhā, the id, the amygdala, or whatever you will -- is ultimately still a part of us. We are embodied beings, with physical cravings and wants. We can't disown our desires, because they are us.
Desire also has other drawbacks, for example despite all the time and effort I put into fulfilling desire, it's only a matter of time before I desire something new and chase after it. Meaning, the pleasant effect of fulfillment disappears in time. Moreover, after the pleasant effect wears off, the costs might still remain: having to pay off installments/credit card bills for things that are no longer pleasant, health costs after enjoying drugs or even a fat-laden meal, unwanted children/abortions after a wild night out.
As for the desiring part being part of you, well, your hands are part of you, and you can't disown them. They are capable of killing, stealing or hurting someone, but you can choose to use them in such ways.
Re: Is our desire part of us?
Desire is not part of us. There are at least two words for desire. Tanha and Chanda. Tanha is normally unskilful. It means Greed. Chanda can be unskilful but can also be positive. It means "wish to do". In order to develop in some way, you need one or other. In order to free yourself from desire, you need Chanda. Consider if you are feeling negativity or anger, then desire is not part of you, anger is. At any moment the mind experiences a certain state. Desire is clearly not a permanent state of mind, it comes and goes. Yes, part of desire is bodily and chemical, but as humans we can rise above it.
- Mohan Gnanathilake
- Posts: 89
- Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:16 am
- Location: Ragama, Sri Lanka
- Contact:
Re: Is our desire part of us?
The Gautama Buddha said that neither can we be masters of our mind; the mental states or ‘cittas’ which arise are beyond control. Like and dislike are beyond control, they arise when there are conditions.
All thoughts begin in the mind, mind is supreme and mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with impure mind pain follows him like the wheel the hoof of the ox.
(Dhammapada 1, Yamaka Vagga – The Twin Verses)
All thoughts begin in the mind, mind is supreme and mind –made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind happiness follows him like one’s shadow that never leaves.
(Dhammapada 2, Yamaka Vagga – The Twin Verses)
(Dhammapada 1, Yamaka Vagga – The Twin Verses)
All thoughts begin in the mind, mind is supreme and mind –made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind happiness follows him like one’s shadow that never leaves.
(Dhammapada 2, Yamaka Vagga – The Twin Verses)
-
- Posts: 2602
- Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm
Re: Is our desire part of us?
And may I suggest that our desires are conditioned by asava or defilements foaming in our mind which lead to ignorance and kkesha. This is well explained in Sabbasava sutta.Mohan Gnanathilake wrote:The Gautama Buddha said that neither can we be masters of our mind; the mental states or ‘cittas’ which arise are beyond control. Like and dislike are beyond control, they arise when there are conditions.