Pali Canon

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Re: Pali Canon

Postby stuka » Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:25 am

Dhammanando wrote:Hi Retro,

retrofuturist wrote:I understand it's actually quite a long Nikaya in terms of wordcount, does anyone know for sure?


Why, of course we do! You mean to tell us you've never bothered to count how many words there are in the four Nikayas!? What have been doing since you became a Buddhist?

Seriously though, I’ve never done a word count, but the Pali text files on my computer are of the following sizes:

Vinaya Pitaka 3.9 MB

Sutta Pitaka:

- Digha Nikaya 1.4 MB
- Majjhima Nikaya 2.3 MB
- Samyutta Nikaya 2.5 MB
- Anguttara Nikaya 2.9 MB
- Khuddaka Nikaya 6.6 MB

Abhidhamma Pitaka 8.1 MB

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu



If one is really interested, once can simply open the file in MS Word (or, probably, any other pro- or better-consumer- word processor), and use the "Word Count" function in the "Tools" menu.


Do you have each (or any) of the above in complete electronic form in English, Bhante?
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby stuka » Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:27 am

rick wrote:Greetings Dhammakid---Amazon would certainly be the least expensive way, that is how I assembled my sets, I just checked and they have some good prices--with the added bonus of free shipping over $25.00. In Peace---Rick :)



....but keep one eye on Ebay, as well. I've gotten some good deals there. Just picked up an MLDB for $30, including shipping. I also picked up a complete 3-volume set of Nyanamoli's original translation of the Majjhima, edited by Phra Khanitpalo. It is entitled "A Treasury of the Buddha's Words, and is available from Bodhi Trader in the Land of Oz (Ebay user bodhi-trader2003 , http://stores.ebay.com/MAHABODHI-ARTS ).

I like the organization of this series. The Suttas are arranged according to general theme, rather than the popular but quite arbitrary numbering system that we generally see today. The Suttas are gathered in eight sections by (more or less) their relevance to: Lay people, Bhikkhu life, Training in Dhamma, Views held by non-Buddhists, Suttas on "wisdom" (panna) which are phrased in terms of dhammas rather than persons, attainment of Arhantship, a group of four Suttas that address the Buddha's life before Awakening and just after, and Suttas in which the Buddha speaks of himself as the Tathagata.

If there is interest, I will scan the contents pages to show the organization. Khanitphalo's introduction is quite good as well, and I might like to scan and share it here as well.


Nyanamoli died (young) before completing his translations, and Khantipalo changed some translations here and there, as did Bodhi. Both note the major changes they did. Also, only 90 Suttas were translated and presented in this series.
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby Dhammanando » Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:35 am

Hi Stuka,

stuka wrote:Do you have each (or any) of the above in complete electronic form in English, Bhante?


No. I have the Tipitaka and it commentaries in Pali and Thai translation, but only bits and pieces from the English translations. I was given a CD some years ago on which a Thai monk had scanned and OCR'ed all the PTS translations in the Mahachula University library, but as it's a rather poor library some volumes from each Nikaya are missing. Also, the OCR'ing is so poor and the works haven't been proof-read, so I've never find any use for them.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby stuka » Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:19 am

Thank you, Bhante.

I had thought that at some point I had run across some reference that alluded to availability of Bodhi's MN/CDB/DN series, or at least one or another of them, in electronic form (on CDs, download, etc). Was I mistaken about this?


If so, would it not make sense to just release the texts in electronic form, for the benefit of all...?
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby Dhammanando » Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:14 am

Hi Stuka,

stuka wrote:I had thought that at some point I had run across some reference that alluded to availability of Bodhi's MN/CDB/DN series, or at least one or another of them, in electronic form (on CDs, download, etc). Was I mistaken about this?


I know there is a CD circulating that has Word files of Bodhi's MN and Walshe's DN on it (but not CN). But I don't know what its provenance is or whether it has been done with the approval of Wisdom Publications.

If so, would it not make sense to just release the texts in electronic form, for the benefit of all...?


It would make good dhammic sense, but I don't know about commercial sense.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:44 am

hi all remined me of a video on youtube http://uk.youtube.com/results?search_qu ... type=&aq=f
at the end he talks about some of the points discussed here and of a CD of the complete Korean Canon I think it is, but it is at the end
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby fig tree » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:54 am

Dhammakid wrote:And does anyone know which parts of the Tipitaka are and are not available on A2I?

I don't think there's any simple pattern to the choice of suttas for which people have contributed translations. You can see for yourself by checking the index at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/index.html. If you follow the link for the Digha Nikaya, for example, you find that it has DN 2, 9, 11, 12, 15.... It says it doesn't have anything from the Abhidhamma yet.

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Re: Pali Canon

Postby Dhammakid » Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:06 pm

rick wrote:Hello Dhammakid---I spent quite a bit, as I got all the 3 Nikayas, plus the Numerical Discourses. However, the first one I got was "In the Buddha's Words", which made me want to read more. I couldn't purchase all of them at once, living on S.S. doesn't allow for that.--Check out Amazon, though, all those books are over $25 I believe, and therefore eligible for free shipping.---Rick


Thanks for the info, Rick. It helps a lot.

:namaste:
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby Dhammakid » Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:07 pm

Will wrote:
rick wrote:Greetings Dhammakid---Amazon would certainly be the least expensive way, that is how I assembled my sets, I just checked and they have some good prices--with the added bonus of free shipping over $25.00. In Peace---Rick :)


Using the Amazon Used category, not New, is pretty good. But ABE can sometimes beat Amazon for used prices:

http://www.abebooks.com/?cm_ven=ggl&cm_ ... hgodCm9zQw


Oh wow, I'll have to check out ABE for sure.
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby Dhammakid » Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:10 pm

stuka wrote:
rick wrote:Greetings Dhammakid---Amazon would certainly be the least expensive way, that is how I assembled my sets, I just checked and they have some good prices--with the added bonus of free shipping over $25.00. In Peace---Rick :)



....but keep one eye on Ebay, as well. I've gotten some good deals there. Just picked up an MLDB for $30, including shipping. I also picked up a complete 3-volume set of Nyanamoli's original translation of the Majjhima, edited by Phra Khanitpalo. It is entitled "A Treasury of the Buddha's Words, and is available from Bodhi Trader in the Land of Oz (Ebay user bodhi-trader2003 , http://stores.ebay.com/MAHABODHI-ARTS ).

I like the organization of this series. The Suttas are arranged according to general theme, rather than the popular but quite arbitrary numbering system that we generally see today. The Suttas are gathered in eight sections by (more or less) their relevance to: Lay people, Bhikkhu life, Training in Dhamma, Views held by non-Buddhists, Suttas on "wisdom" (panna) which are phrased in terms of dhammas rather than persons, attainment of Arhantship, a group of four Suttas that address the Buddha's life before Awakening and just after, and Suttas in which the Buddha speaks of himself as the Tathagata.

If there is interest, I will scan the contents pages to show the organization. Khanitphalo's introduction is quite good as well, and I might like to scan and share it here as well.


Nyanamoli died (young) before completing his translations, and Khantipalo changed some translations here and there, as did Bodhi. Both note the major changes they did. Also, only 90 Suttas were translated and presented in this series.


Thanks Stuka, for the great information. I totally forgot about Ebay, I'll have to check them out.

Please feel free to scan the contents page you spoke of. I'm interested in seeing it.

:namaste:
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby Dhammakid » Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:13 pm

fig tree wrote:
Dhammakid wrote:And does anyone know which parts of the Tipitaka are and are not available on A2I?

I don't think there's any simple pattern to the choice of suttas for which people have contributed translations. You can see for yourself by checking the index at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/index.html. If you follow the link for the Digha Nikaya, for example, you find that it has DN 2, 9, 11, 12, 15.... It says it doesn't have anything from the Abhidhamma yet.

Fig Tree


Thanks Fig Tree. I actually did end up checking myself and that's what I have found. If nothing else, A2I has the largest collection on the net. More than enough for me at the moment.

:namaste:
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:01 pm

Dhammakid wrote: If nothing else, A2I has the largest collection on the net. More than enough for me at the moment.
Dhammakid

A2I actually appears quite selective to me, with a slant towards the Suttas that Ajahn Thanissaro considers useful.

Mettanet has is also incomplete, and lacks in commentary, but does have all of the MN, for example.
http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/index.html

However, for study I prefer books, particularly the work of Bhikkhu Bodhi.

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Re: Pali Canon

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:14 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Dhammakid wrote: If nothing else, A2I has the largest collection on the net. More than enough for me at the moment.
Dhammakid

A2I actually appears quite selective to me, with a slant towards the Suttas that Ajahn Thanissaro considers useful.

Mettanet has is also incomplete, and lacks in commentary, but does have all of the MN, for example.
http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/index.html

However, for study I prefer books, particularly the work of Bhikkhu Bodhi.

Metta
Mike


well their is always http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Wikipitaka:About

and A2I is free Distribution not copyright so not bound by thanissaro but by who freely publishes or gives their work
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby Dhammanando » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:23 am

Hi Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:Mettanet has is also incomplete, and lacks in commentary, but does have all of the MN, for example.


Yes, but the translations by Sister Uppalavannā are extremely bad. One would be well advised not to use them for anything more than getting a general sense of what a Sutta is about.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:46 am

Manapa wrote:well their is always http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Wikipitaka:About

Thanks for that. They seem to be mostly from A2I and Mettanet. It's strange that they don't always acknowledge the translators (e.g. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's from A2I) and have not reproduced all of the footnotes. Compare http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Mulapariyaya_Sutta and http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Manapa wrote:and A2I is free Distribution not copyright so not bound by thanissaro but by who freely publishes or gives their work

While there are a number of translations by other authors, the vast majority there are by Ven. Thanissaro. I find it an extremely valuable resource and I find Ven. Thanissaro's translations and analysis very useful. However, the selection, the translations, and the analyses are from a particular point of view that is not always "Standard Theravada".

And as Ven Dhammanando points out, the Mettanet translations can also be problematical...

This is why I prefer to use, if at all possible, the translations by Scholars such as Ven Nanamoli, Bodhi, etc. Bhikkhu Bodhi is very careful to explicitly point out where he differs from the interpretations in the Commentaries. Given the amount of time it takes me to study the Suttas the cost per hour of reading has become vanishingly small... :reading:

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Re: Pali Canon

Postby Dhammakid » Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:07 am

Hello all,
This is all great information, thank you all very much.

I am not even close to the point where I can begin discriminating between various translations and their scholars. I am very much a beginner in understanding the words of the Buddha, so any translation helps me (since I am always reading for general understanding and not anything deep). Basically my practice consists of reading a sutta and getting the words in my head, and reflecting on them during the day and seeing if anything pops up during meditation. But beyond that - I have no teacher (right now, you all are my teachers, and the Buddha, haha), so all I have to rely on is online discussion and internet resources.

I'm not even sure if reading the texts are doing me any good other than giving some knowledgeable frameworks by which to discuss and think about. But maybe that's all I need right now.

So I guess what I'm saying is - I'm sticking with what's available to me. A2I seems good enough, as well as What Buddha Taught and a few others. I'll continue to ask questions when they come up.

Thanks again.

:namaste:
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:13 am

Hi Dhammakid,

In my opinion the most efficient place to start is with Bhikkhu Bodhi's book, In the Buddha's Words:
http://wisdompubs.org/Pages/display.lasso?-KeyValue=104
It gives a very good overview of the Suttas organised in an easy-to-hard order with excellent explanation. It's cheap and you can read the introductory material and the first Chapter at the link above.

Metta
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:33 am

Hi Dhammakid

Dhammakid wrote:Hello all,
This is all great information, thank you all very much.

I am not even close to the point where I can begin discriminating between various translations and their scholars. I am very much a beginner in understanding the words of the Buddha, so any translation helps me (since I am always reading for general understanding and not anything deep). Basically my practice consists of reading a sutta and getting the words in my head, and reflecting on them during the day and seeing if anything pops up during meditation. But beyond that - I have no teacher (right now, you all are my teachers, and the Buddha, haha), so all I have to rely on is online discussion and internet resources.

it has only been in the last six months or so I ventured out into the world of comparing the Suttas Translations, and only found a teacher locally to where I lived a few years ago (I've since moved) and then it was only twice a year he was on the Isle.
I use to stick with the translation on A2I I preferred the "feel of"but wondered how the different translations compared (I'll post my thoughts of the piece on metta meditation)

Dhammakid wrote:I'm not even sure if reading the texts are doing me any good other than giving some knowledgeable frameworks by which to discuss and think about. But maybe that's all I need right now.

So I guess what I'm saying is - I'm sticking with what's available to me. A2I seems good enough, as well as What Buddha Taught and a few others. I'll continue to ask questions when they come up.

Thanks again.

look up on a search engine Aha Moments, also known as Eureka Moments
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"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:41 am

Hi Mike

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Dhammakid,

In my opinion the most efficient place to start is with Bhikkhu Bodhi's book, In the Buddha's Words:
http://wisdompubs.org/Pages/display.lasso?-KeyValue=104
It gives a very good overview of the Suttas organised in an easy-to-hard order with excellent explanation. It's cheap and you can read the introductory material and the first Chapter at the link above.

Metta
Mike


I have this book but I prefer the suttas in the canon order personally. but a good book and really liked the introductions.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:37 pm

Which is the oldest part of the sutta pitaka?
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan
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