Taking members seriously

[tiltbillings]

What exactly do you want here?

In this thread, I wanted what I thought had been offered: a helpful discussion. I wasn't looking for or expecting more fireworks.

And you had no part to play in the fireworks? The example you chose was not very good, but why would think that if you are going to criticize me that that I would not respond? Why would not think that if you are going to criticize me that others here might not respond as they have?

You actually got what you wanted. You expressed a criticism of me as a moderator, and the discussion that followed was helpful, but obviously not in the way you hoped. Life is like that, sometimes, huh?

[andre9999]

As I've learned since being married, sometimes it's best to just shut up. Chances are good that opening your mouth is just going to make things worse.

Instead of opening this suggestion thread immediately after the last heated discussion, it may have been more helpful to come back to it a week later and see if this thread really needed to be started. Even better yet, through a little metta meditation in there towards Tilt and see what happens.

And that's not to say that you're right or wrong. This thread simply hasn't been effective, so maybe there was a better option to achieve your goal.

[tiltbillings]

This thread simply hasn't been effective, so maybe there was a better option to achieve your goal.

What would have been an "effective" outcome? My publicly being chastised by the various members here? Clearly the idea of taking members here seriously by the staff is important and I try to do that, though not being perfect and all . . . .

I think is it important to understand that a thread such as this is highly unpredictable as to what direction is going to take, and I do not think one should be either surprised or disappointed that it goes off in a particular direction. That is simply what happens.

[Jechbi]

Even better yet, through a little metta meditation in there towards Tilt and see what happens.

Absolutely. I certainly have done this. For me, it's very good practice to deliberately send metta and thoughts of good will not only to myself and the people I care about, but also to people I am neutral about and to people with whom I have had disputes.

[Jechbi]

Tilt, earlier you told me:

No one is telling you do not have legitimate grievances

So there are different possible focal points for comments in this tread, including:
1) The underlying concerns about things that sometimes happen on this board; and
2) My manner if conveying those concerns.

Many of the responses have focused on my manner of conveying those concerns. Few have focused on the underlying concerns. I don't want to dwell on it or try to prove a point. I don't want to litigate. I don't want to dig around and come up with lots of examples. But I also don't want to keep having the focus put again and again on my manner of conveying these concerns. That wasn't supposed to be the topic.

What would have been an "effective" outcome? My publicly being chastised by the various members here?

No, certainly not. I can't tell you exactly what an "effective" outcome might be for this discussion. A discussion like this is what the participants make of it. I will say that I have seen venues where leadership receives public criticism without the critics being subject to a backlash. I have seen venues where leadership receives criticism graciously and uses it as a starting point to begin to explore what prompted the underlying concerns to be expressed. I have seen venues where, even if the criticism seems unfair, the leadership gives it due consideration, with the benefit of the doubt, and examines publicly in what manner the leadership itself might have inadvertantly elicited those concerns.

I think an "effective" outcome also will always be one in which we all continue to treat one another in a friendly way and with respect.

I accept my faults in the manner in which I have raised these concerns. I would love to see Dhamma Wheel as a venue where leadership can publicly make lemonade out of those lemons.

[PeterB]

I see no reason why this thread should ever end.......

[andre9999]

What would have been an "effective" outcome? My publicly being chastised by the various members here?

I dunno, have we tried publicly chastising you yet? I haven't been here long.

I didn't say that there was a more effective outcome of a thread like this. I personally don't feel like a blog or a new thread about something like this is going to be beneficial to anyone. I don't recall the Buddha ever saying that Right Speech includes standing on a mount and telling the town what an a-hole that one guy is.

My most effective communication with people I disagree with is either through empathy in a one-on-one discussion or just letting it all go. It works best for me.

[andre9999]

I accept my faults in the manner in which I have raised these concerns.

You may accept your faults, but you sure don't seem to be doing much to improve upon them. I think pretty much everyone here has said that you should just drop it. You've made yourself crystal clear, but yet you keep going on and on about it.

[Aloka]

I was reading this and thought it might be relevant:

When you are suffering - 'Why am I suffering? Why am I miserable?' Because you are clinging to something! Find out what you are clinging to, to get to the source.

'I'm unhappy because nobody loves me.' That may be true, maybe nobody loves you, but the unhappiness comes from wanting people to love you. Even if they do love you, you will still have suffering if you think that other people are responsible for your happiness or your suffering.

Someone says, 'You are the greatest person in the world!' – and you jump for joy. Someone says, 'You are the most horrible person I've met in my life!' – and you get depressed. Let go of depression, let go of happiness. Keep the practice simple: live your life mindfully, morally, and have faith in letting go.

from 'Letting Go' by Ajahn Sumedho
_/\_


http://www.vipassanadhura.com/lettinggo.html

[Rael]

hi...wow drama galore.....

i really think any input at all towards anything other than reply to the post and not the poster or your interpretation of a poster's agenda....

would end a lot of this....

i'm here from the mahayana site and find this whole affair disturbing....the two links to discussion are locked and i had input to post...can't....sad ...really sad...


said in my best peter fond easy rider voice"Get it together people"

[tiltbillings]

Tilt, earlier you told me:

No one is telling you do not have legitimate grievances

So there are different possible focal points for comments in this tread, including:
1) The underlying concerns about things that sometimes happen on this board; and
2) My manner if conveying those concerns.

Many of the responses have focused on my manner of conveying those concerns.

And you might want to ask yourself, why?

No, certainly not. I can't tell you exactly what an "effective" outcome might be for this discussion. A discussion like this is what the participants make of it. I will say that I have seen venues where leadership receives public criticism without the critics being subject to a backlash.

That is nice; however, it serves no purpose for a faulty criticism to go unchallenged.

I have seen venues where leadership receives criticism graciously and uses it as a starting point to begin to explore what prompted the underlying concerns to be expressed. I have seen venues where, even if the criticism seems unfair, the leadership gives it due consideration, with the benefit of the doubt, and examines publicly in what manner the leadership itself might have inadvertantly elicited those concerns.

The reality, J, is that your criticisms have been given a considerable amount of attention by the staff here. This public business may not be the way the Dhamma Wheel runs itself, so you are going to keep harping on this over and over and over? First of all I do not see any particular benefit of hashing out complaints publicly (which is not to say that certain issues cannot be talked about publicly), but I do see a lot of problems coming out of that. Look at this thread. Quite frankly, had your complaints of a year ago been played out publicly, things would likely not have gone any better for you then than they are going for you now.

I think an "effective" outcome also will always be one in which we all continue to treat one another in a friendly way and with respect.

The staff tries and I think does a decent job at it.

I would love to see Dhamma Wheel as a venue where leadership can publicly make lemonade out of those lemons.

So, with every complaint, it must played out publicly? Is that what you are saying? And if Dhamma Wheel does not want to function that way, you will continue to complain about it?

[GIDGE]

I was reading this and thought it might be relevant:

When you are suffering - 'Why am I suffering? Why am I miserable?' Because you are clinging to something! Find out what you are clinging to, to get to the source.

'I'm unhappy because nobody loves me.' That may be true, maybe nobody loves you, but the unhappiness comes from wanting people to love you. Even if they do love you, you will still have suffering if you think that other people are responsible for your happiness or your suffering.

Someone says, 'You are the greatest person in the world!' – and you jump for joy. Someone says, 'You are the most horrible person I've met in my life!' – and you get depressed. Let go of depression, let go of happiness. Keep the practice simple: live your life mindfully, morally, and have faith in letting go.

from 'Letting Go' by Ajahn Sumedho
_/\_


http://www.vipassanadhura.com/lettinggo.html

[palchi]

"We have to liberate ourselves not other people. We should not look to the outside for liberation, we must liberate ourselves. The way to be liberated is to live with a simple mind in the present. This is the main point of the teachings. The most precious teaching is to accept everything that is happening to you. Accept everything at that very moment. If you go to a restaurant, whether you like the food that is given to you or not, you accept that particular food. You need to give up the whole idea of not liking: whatever food ist presented to you, edible or not, you accept it; whatever accommodation is offered to you, whether good or bad, you accept it; however people treat you, whether kindly, softly, lovingly, or badly, you accept that. It is all about being non-judgemental: you do not judge the food, the clothing, what is right, what is wrong. You accept the situation, whatever you experience. You appreciate everything that is happening, not just the positive things, like when somebody is kind to you, but also when someone is unkind to you and you do not like it. The teachings say you should appreciate any experience. Whoever is presenting you with the experience, you should be thankful to them."
Akong Rinpoche, Limitless Compassion

It's a quote from a Tibetan Buddhist teacher but feels relevant here....

[PeterB]

"We have to liberate ourselves not other people. We should not look to the outside for liberation, we must liberate ourselves. The way to be liberated is to live with a simple mind in the present. This is the main point of the teachings. The most precious teaching is to accept everything that is happening to you. Accept everything at that very moment. If you go to a restaurant, whether you like the food that is given to you or not, you accept that particular food. You need to give up the whole idea of not liking: whatever food ist presented to you, edible or not, you accept it; whatever accommodation is offered to you, whether good or bad, you accept it; however people treat you, whether kindly, softly, lovingly, or badly, you accept that. It is all about being non-judgemental: you do not judge the food, the clothing, what is right, what is wrong. You accept the situation, whatever you experience. You appreciate everything that is happening, not just the positive things, like when somebody is kind to you, but also when someone is unkind to you and you do not like it. The teachings say you should appreciate any experience. Whoever is presenting you with the experience, you should be thankful to them."
Akong Rinpoche, Limitless Compassion

It's a quote from a Tibetan Buddhist teacher but feels relevant here....

I couldnt resist noting that I once went to a restaurant...and Akong Rinpoche was there. This was at the UK's only Tibetan restaurant in Leicester Square in London...now sadly closed...but I digress.
Fortunately the food was very good.
But of course his point is spot on.

[palchi]

"We have to liberate ourselves not other people. We should not look to the outside for liberation, we must liberate ourselves. The way to be liberated is to live with a simple mind in the present. This is the main point of the teachings. The most precious teaching is to accept everything that is happening to you. Accept everything at that very moment. If you go to a restaurant, whether you like the food that is given to you or not, you accept that particular food. You need to give up the whole idea of not liking: whatever food ist presented to you, edible or not, you accept it; whatever accommodation is offered to you, whether good or bad, you accept it; however people treat you, whether kindly, softly, lovingly, or badly, you accept that. It is all about being non-judgemental: you do not judge the food, the clothing, what is right, what is wrong. You accept the situation, whatever you experience. You appreciate everything that is happening, not just the positive things, like when somebody is kind to you, but also when someone is unkind to you and you do not like it. The teachings say you should appreciate any experience. Whoever is presenting you with the experience, you should be thankful to them."
Akong Rinpoche, Limitless Compassion

It's a quote from a Tibetan Buddhist teacher but feels relevant here....

I couldnt resist noting that I once went to a restaurant...and Akong Rinpoche was there. This was at the UK's only Tibetan restaurant in Leicester Square in London...now sadly closed...but I digress.
Fortunately the food was very good.
But of course his point is spot on.

nice one I saw a picture of him visiting South Africa - in all local dress...

[PeterB]

I was there with one of my granddaughters who was then about 12. He was so nice to her.

[palchi]

I was there with one of my granddaughters who was then about 12. He was so nice to her.

Yes, he's wonderful... I remember a refuge ceremony in Samye Ling where a little boy (maybe 3 or 4) was just running up to him, totally drawn to him and Rinpoche was simply responsive to him and so kind and accepting...

He's a great inspiration for me.

but now really

[Fede]

Jeesh, I go away for a day, and you guys....

is it teatime yet?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Jechbi,

An objection I have had is that it seems to me that people are not treated as kindly here as they should expect to be on a Dhamma discussion board. I imagined that other people might feel the same way. I thought it was worth having a public discussion about.

Back in the early days of your blog I posted a comment (since removed, I believe) that we simply do not hear complaints from members about the kinds of things you complain about. When you read my words the first time, you virtually dismissed them outright, as you were thoroughly convinced that surely others must feel the way you do (particularly about that naughty Tiltbillings), and that you and these undisclosed others needed to be protected from whatever abuse of the day was making Dhamma Wheel "the most negative experience [you]’ve ever had on the web."

Now that you see your imaginings are seemingly not reflective of other members' experience here, what now?

If concerns are private concerns rather than public concerns, what do you think might be the best way forward?

Metta,
Retro.

[Fede]

This is precisely why public threads airing personal gripes about Moderators, or their methods are not encouraged on all three Forums on which I moderate.
Any such discussion which goes over 2 pages has really exhausted itself, and where such people can be described, merely feeds the trolls.

I speak from long and at times painful experience, because I, being a woman of a certain age, once permitted my attention to become so focussed upon the matter in hand, I neglected the remainder of my duties.
I further permitted the issue to get the better of my temperament (I blamed my hormones.... well, something had to be responsible!!) and actually carried out my duties as a Moderator in an unskilful and less than well thought-out manner.

I would hasten to add, no such issue is arising here. All Moderators participating are showing remarkable restraint and patience. And far, FAR be it from me to even insinuate any suggestion that I know better than any of them. Far from it. On the contrary. Much of what I practice today is due in no small part to the kind and good example the Moderators here, set.

However, I'd have shut it down long ago, and reinforced policy more privately.

Sometimes, the best way to have the last word in an argument, is to say "Thanks, I see your point." - and leave it at that.

And I'm leaving it at that.