You're conflating two different analyses, and then attempting to accuse me of misreading the Dhammasaṅgaṇī. Another red herring. Here's a translation of the Dhammasaṅgaṇī Cittuppādakaṇḍa Lokuttarakusala Suddhikapaṭipadā:Sylvester wrote:Since, Geoff, the Dhammasangani seems to be your flavour of the moment for your "concomitant vipassana and jhana" theory, here's what the Dhammasangani has to say about your "vipassana"
- When at a certain time one develops supramundane jhāna, which leads out, which goes to decrease (of rebirth), to abandonment of wrong views, to the attainment of the first stage (i.e. sotāpattimagga), quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful phenomena, he enters and remains in the first jhāna, which includes directed thought and evaluation, as well as joy and pleasure born of seclusion, and with difficult practice and slow acquisition of gnosis, then at that time there is contact, there is feeling, there is apperception, there is volitional intention, there is directed thought, there is evaluation, there is joy, there is pleasure, there is singleness of mind, there is the faculty of faith, there is the faculty of energy, there is the faculty of mindfulness, there is the faculty of concentration, there is the faculty of discernment, there is the mind-faculty, there is the happiness-faculty, there is the life-faculty, there is the 'I-shall-come-to-know-the-unknown' faculty, there is right view, there is right resolve, there is right effort, there is right mindfulness, there is right concentration, there is the strength of faith, there is the strength of energy, there is the strength of mindfulness, there is the strength of concentration, there is the strength of discernment, there is the strength of conscience, there is the strength of shame, there is no greed, there is no hate, there is no delusion, there is no avarice, there is no aversion, there is right view, there is conscience, there is shame, there is bodily calm, there is mental calm, there is bodily lightness, there is mental lightness, there is bodily pliability, there is mental pliability, there is bodily workableness, there is mental workableness, there is bodily proficiency, there is mental proficiency, there is bodily uprightness, there is mental uprightness, there is mindfulness, there is full awareness, there is samatha, there is vipassanā, there is exertion, there is non-distraction.
What at that time is the faculty of discernment? That which at that time is discernment, thorough understanding, investigation, comprehensive investigation, dhamma-investigation, consideration, discrimination, direct discrimination, erudite intelligence, proficiency, refined intelligence, discriminative examination, reflection, comparative examination, breadth of knowledge, wisdom that destroys defilements, penetrative wisdom, vipassanā, full awareness, discernment like a guiding goad, faculty of discernment, strength of discernment, discernment like a sword, discernment like a tower, discernment like light, discernment like radiance, discernment like a torch, discernment like a jewel, non-delusion, dhamma-investigation, right view, awakening factor of dhamma-investigation, a path factor, knowledge included in the path – this at that time is the faculty of discernment.
What at that time is vipassanā? That which at that time is discernment, thorough understanding, investigation, comprehensive investigation, dhamma-investigation, consideration, discrimination, direct discrimination, erudite intelligence, proficiency, refined intelligence, discriminative examination, reflection, comparative examination, breadth of knowledge, wisdom that destroys defilements, penetrative wisdom, vipassanā, full awareness, discernment like a guiding goad, faculty of discernment, strength of discernment, discernment like a sword, discernment like a tower, discernment like light, discernment like radiance, discernment like a torch, discernment like a jewel, non-delusion, dhamma-investigation, right view, awakening factor of dhamma-investigation, a path factor, knowledge included in the path – this at that time is vipassanā.
Are you suggesting that there would be no faculty of discernment or vipassanā occurring if one were to attain the noble path through the second, third, or fourth jhāna? Are you suggesting that the Dhammasaṅgaṇī is short of both the satisambojjhaṅga and the dhammavicayasambojjhaṅga?Sylvester wrote:Based on your oxymoronic avitakka avicara dhamma-vicaya, I have to revise my assessment and respectfully suggest that your model is short of both the sati bojjhanga and the dhamma-vicaya bojjhanga.
All the best,
Geoff