morning mist wrote:The path taken by Sariputta in MN 111 is Samatha-vipassanaṃ yuganaddhaṃ ( Yuganaddha sutta AN 4.170) .
"In this mode of practice, one enters the first jhāna and then, after emerging from it, applies insight to that experience, i.e. one sees the five aggregates within the jhāna (form, feeling, perception, etc.) as impermanent, liable to suffering, and non-self. Then one enters the second jhāna and contemplates it with insight; and applies the same pairwise procedure to the other jhānas as well, until the path of stream-entry, etc., is realized." - Ven Nyanatiloka
It is also possible to develop vipassanā while abiding in jhāna. MN 111 describes this, as does the Abhidhammapiṭaka. Of course, if one is abiding in a non-perceptive attainment then there is no possibility of apperception or insight.
Samatha-vipassanaṃ yuganaddhaṃ is one out of the Four Ways to Arahantship mentioned in the Yuganaddha sutta AN 4.170. It is Samatha and Vipassana Joined in Pairs. Nyanatiloka described it as entering first jhana, then emerged from it to review it with insight before going into the next jhana. The same pattern is repeated with the rest of the other jhanas. It is not within. I have shown that in another sutta, the Buddha also emerges from one jhana before going into the next. But this is after his enlightenment already, so he didn't pause to develop insight again.
Nanna wrote: Yes, it's quite clear that Ven. Brahmavamso's jhāna is incompatible with what is presented in the Pāḷi Tipiṭaka as well as all of the other major Indian Sthaviravāda treatises, all of which present vipassanā occurring within jhāna.
What I meant is that if we each post from different teachers , and they both say opposite things. There is no point. What I suggest is that we check with the sutta of the Buddha.
When it comes to his technique to jhanas, step 1-4, I believe is not different from various teachers. But when it comes to step 5 where one is beyond the 5 senses, step 6 attending to the nimitta, and developing insight after emerging from jhana. These three steps certain teachers feel that it is too deep for them.
* Ajahn Brahm's method is called Samatha-pubbangamam vipassanam according to the Sutta in the Tipitaka:
“Here, friends, a bhikkhu develops insight preceded by tranquillity (Samatha-pubbangamam vipassanam). As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path arises in him. He now frequents that path, cultivates, and pursues it. While he is doing so his fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies destroyed." -Yuganaddha sutta
* I have shown that, a samadhi where one is still reflecting on the dhamma is not deep enough:
“When he has abandoned these, there still remain thoughts about the dhamma (dhamma vitakka). That samadhi is not yet peaceful and sublime; it has not attained to full tranquillity , nor has it achieved mental unification (ekodibhava) ; it is maintained by strenuous suppression of the defilements . –Pamsudhovaka Sutta
I have shown the Suttas from the Tipitaka where the Buddha and other disciples have gone beyond the senses in jhanas. Such as:
"And I asked him: 'Why, brother, has this great crowd gathered together?' And he answered me: 'Just now, Lord, there was a heavy rain, with thunder rolling, lightning flashing, and thunderbolts crashing. And two farmers who were brothers were killed close by, together with four oxen. It is because of this that the great crowd has gathered. But where, Lord, were you?'
"'I was here, brother.' 'Yet, Lord, did you not see it?' 'I did not see it, brother.' 'BUT THE NOISE , Lord, you surely heard?' 'I DID NOT HEAR IT, brother.' Then that man asked me: 'Then, Lord, perhaps you slept?' 'No, brother, I was not sleeping.' 'Then, LORD, YOU WERE CONSCIOUS?' 'I WAS, brother.' Then that man said: 'Then, Lord, WHILE CONSCIOUS AND AWAKE, IN THE MIDST OF A HEAVY RAIN, WITH THUNDER ROLLING, LIGHTNING FLASHING, and THUNDERBOLTS CRASHING, YOU NEITHER SAW IT NOR HEARD THE NOISE?' And I answered him, saying: 'I DID NOT, brother.'- Mahaparinibbana Sutta
If a person is really beyond the 5 senses, he would notice neither the carts nor the thunderstorm. But here the Buddha's statement indicated that Alara Kalama was only able to do one ( not noticing the carts) and if there is a loud thunderstorm, Alara Kalama would hear it. It shows that he is not able to go beyond the 5 senses. If a person really teaches the Sphere of Nothingness , he should be able to go beyond the senses and not hear any kind of sound whatsoever. But that is not the case with Alara Kalama despite his claim to teach that state.
6. I have also shown the Suda sutta showing that the Buddha told the monks to attend to the nimitta:
Cittassa nimitta: " there are cases where a foolish, inexperienced, unskillful bhikkhus dwelled focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference (related) to the world. While he dwelled focused on the body in & of itself, his mind does not become concentrated, his defilements ( the five Hindrances) are not abandoned. He does not pick up that SIGN. He dwelled focused on feelings in & of themselves ... the mind in & of itself ... mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference (related) to the world. While he dwelled focused on mental qualities in & of themselves, his mind does not become concentrated, his defilements ( 5 hindrances) are not abandoned. He does not pick up that SIGN. As a result, he does not gain pleasant abiding in this very life, nor does he gain mindfulness & alertness. Why is that? Because the foolish, inexperienced, unskillful bhikkhu does not pick up the SIGN of his own mind (CITTASSA NIMITTA) .
The wise bhikkhu picks up the SIGN (NIMITTAM) of his own mind (cittassa):
"In the same way, there are cases where a wise, experienced, skillful monk dwelled focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference (related) to the world. While he dwelled focused on the body in & of itself, his mind becomes concentrated, his defilements ( the five Hindrances) are abandoned. He picks up that SIGN (NIMITTA) .
"He dwelled focused on feelings in & of themselves ... the mind in & of itself ... mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference (related) to the world. While he dwelled focused on mental qualities in & of themselves, his mind becomes concentrated, his defilements ( 5 hindrances) are abandoned. He picks up that SIGN (NIMITTA).
"As a result, he gain pleasant abiding in this very life, together with mindfulness & alertness. Why is that? Because the wise, experienced, skillful monk picks up on the SIGN (NIMITTA) of his own mind (cittassa)."- Suda Sutta
7. I have shown sutta where the Buddha emerges from each jhana before moving to the next one:
" the Blessed One attained the first jhana. Having emerged from (vuthahitva) the first jhana , he attained the second jhana. Having emerged from ( vutthahitva) the second jhana, he attained the third jhana. Having emerged from the third jhana , he attained the fourth jhana. Having emergerd from the fourth jhana, immediately after this the Blessed One attained final Nibbana. " -
The SN 6.15 Parinibbana sutta
If the discussion helps to clear up misunderstanding then it is great, otherwise just forget all this. It's been fun exchanging ideas.