A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

[morning mist]

Hi Sylvester,

Hi morning mist

It's not a misconception, but a clear misrepresentation. Some people just need strawmen.

These strawmen tactics allege that Ajahn Brahm teaches asanna samadhi. If Ajahn Brahm's students were truly asanna, there would be absolutely no possibility for experiencing, remembering, recollection and review of the states that were and had passed in the Jhanas. But time and time again, Ajahn Brahm emphasises the Anapanasati's 4th tetrad of dhammānupassī. So much data being collected and remembered from a jhana does NOT count as asanna.

Dhammavicaya truly has to function outside of a jhana. I would like to see Geoff give a categorical answer to my 2 questions above about his brand of vipassati and whether it proceeds in the absence of Dhammavicaya.

Perhaps you are right. The conclusions that others drawn, and interpretation made of Ajahn Brahm's words can be inaccurate and quite hasty. Ven Yuttadhama wrote a Critique without reading the book " Mindfulness , Bliss and Beyond" , but only the booklet which is just an in complete and condensed introduction to the book " Mindfulness, bliss and Beyond" . Actually, he wrote a critique after just reading the introduction to the booklet that is introducing the complete book itself. Misrepresentation is inevitable.

The complete book goes into details about developing insight, which is not the case with the little booklet. Perhaps this is one reason why many thought that he taught samatha without the means to develop vipasssana. But people just stop after reading the little booklet or worst, the introduction to the little booklet. He clearly emphasized the need for both samatha and vipassana, which is called bhavana.

With metta,

[IanAnd]

It wasn't until a couple of decades later when I first began reading the Tipitaka that I discovered such eloquent descriptions of the same process.

...but it did proceed, in terms of the jhana much as Sariputta himself described, one state to the next, and with full cognizance and discernment of what was occurring. I can only say that I find the fixation with the minutia of the descriptions of the process by the Blessed Buddha and his Sangha somewhat odd considering the relative simplicity and fluidity of the process when one is truly concerned with it as if it were a matter more pertinent than life and death, which for me, it certainly was and is.

Further, I have never felt that jhana apart from the simultaneous employment of discernment and the development of insights is of any use or interest. Nor have I ever encountered any passionate desire for remaining in jhana at any length nor for the purpose of avoiding normal day to day life or any other states of mind.

Nor have I felt any need to deepen jhana to the point that there is no capacity to emerge from it at any point I would like to[,] nor that there is any point in making a sport of entering into and out of various jhanas.

I find both Ajahn Brahm's and the Visuddhimagga's particular kinds of emphasis of jhana odd in relation to my own experience.

I have always attempted to express the benefits of developing discernment and insight together with calm and concentration. As far as I have ever found, the two mental qualities are mutually supportive, mutually instructive, operate well together and together these lead to the realizations and understandings which are the expressed objectives of the Buddhadhamma.

I very much doubt that I would have arrived at cessation for the first time if I was trying to replicate some particular kind of practice technique based upon the Visudhimagga or upon the teachings of anyone else whom I have subsequently encountered with the possible exception of the instructions which are found in the Buddha's own discourses, doctrines and disciplines, which uniquely appear to be entirely direct and to the point.

His directness is easily noted in retrospect however it is no less astonishing an accomplishment to subsequently encounter and an impressively comprehensive one as well.

It is my sincere hope that people will set aside their reasoning about methodologies and simply look skillfully, intently and exhaustively within their own bodies and minds to determine the truth of their own nature as this is the only way they can fully confirm the truth of the Buddhadhamma for themselves.

Very eloquently and well stated, Nathan. Your experience in these matters reflects my own. It's too bad that so many people want (or feel inclined) to add legs to the snake. He doesn't need them, and can move perfectly well without them.

[morning mist]

Hi Nathan,

There are people who suggest that we don't need jhana for full enlightenment. Then there are those who say we need jhana but have different interpretation of jhana. I personally feel that if that is how someone want to approach jhana , that is perfectly fine. I have no interest in discussing a certain teacher's approach to jhana . But since someone brought up the topic of discussing various interpretation of jhana, that is why we are discussing it. Otherwise, I would also say that we each practice the approach that suit us. I also agree that it is best that we focus on the practice rather than the theory or criticizing a certain teacher's approach without having at least read the whole book . That could easily lead to misrepresentation.

By the way nathan, you mentioned that you experienced four jhanas of Samma Samadhi and various formless states, were you able to recall many fold past lives and have knowledge of the passing away and reappearance of beings as the Buddha and his disciples did after they attained these states, or are the states that you called Samma samadhi and formless states different than the one they practice ?


With metta,

[Ñāṇa]

There are different types of cettavimutti. Each refers to a particular meditation. Not all qualify as the four jhana in Samma Samadhi. You are using the name and description of one type of meditation to describe another. There is obviously a mix up.

In both the Abhidhammapiṭaka and the Aṭṭhakathā mahaggata citta and mahaggatā cetovimutti are understood to refer to jhāna. The commentary on MN 127 specifically says that mahaggatā cetovimutti refers to kasiṇa jhāna:

He covers the are the size of one tree root with the kasiṇanimitta, and he abides resolved upon that totality sign, pervading it with the mahaggatajjhāna.

The same applies to the more expansive totalities. And also in the commentary to the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta the mahaggata citta is understood to refer to the expansive mind abiding in jhāna. Thee is no reason to interpret these suttas differently.

All the best,

Geoff

[nathan]

By the way nathan, you mentioned that you experienced four jhanas of Samma Samadhi and various formless states, were you able to recall many fold past lives and have knowledge of the passing away and reappearance of beings as the Buddha and his disciples did after they attained these states, or are the states that you called Samma samadhi and formless states different than the one they practice ?


With metta,

Hi Morning Mist
Those subjects take us off topic here and such discussions never go well in internet forums. Discussions about rebirth and Jhana are like the two feet that Theravadan pundits frequently appear compelled to shoot before trying to walk anywhere. I have noted some experiences along those lines in more recent years. Noting like that happened immediately after encountering these concentrated states or the cessation of all dependent conditions for the first time.

For many years I had no idea that anyone had anything to say about what I had encountered or anything more to add in relation to it but it did have a predominant influence on my life. I was unable to follow along in keeping with the christian faith of my family because I honestly could not agree with their faith. I don't think this would have happened if I weren't held to such a high moral standard of conduct throughout my childhood and youth and this did not change my behavior in that respect. I was subjected to a lot of misbehavior from other children throughout my years in public school because of the way I conducted myself and my refusal to act like other young boys but I felt compelled to continue maintaining conduct that was honest, restrained and peaceful even when the treatment I received was very unpleasant.

When I discovered that the Tipitaka still existed and that much of it had been translated I was very very interested to read it based on the few fragments of discourses that I had encountered in quotations in various buddhist books. When I began to read the suttas for the first time I was so taken by it that I couldn't sleep for days and just continued to read and re-read the discourses with complete amazement. There was no doubt in my mind that the Buddha was worthy of my highest esteem and respect. When I discovered what it meant I reflected on my own views in regards to similar things for a few months and then went for refuge with no hesitation.

For about five years before I discovered the Tipitaka texts all I had to refer to was a copy of the Visuddhimagga I had found in a used book store. During the time when this was all the information that I had I thought that perhaps the jhanas were something deeper than what I found and find in my own experience with concentration and similarly that insights were something other than the insights that I had encountered but after many years of continued daily meditation practice and serious reflection I was eventually forced to accept the practical impossibility as there simply was and is nothing more or deeper to be found, at least in my case.

Over the last ten years or so I have been working to overcome the fetters and taints and meditating on the outflows and so on. I am deeply and incomparably indebted to the Buddha and to the centuries of stewardship of his Sangha for his teachings about all of these central human concerns and to the many fine bhikkhus, ajahns, translators and scholars who have contributed such richness to my understanding of early Buddhism and provided so much insight into the invaluable and unparalleled guidance and instruction that the Buddha gave to all beings who yearn for freedom from being and becoming.

[Sylvester]

Do you assert that one can vipassati without the Dhammavicayasambojjhanga?

Yes or No?

No. And both vipassati and the dhamma-investigation awakening factor are multifaceted. They take on different levels of meaning at different stages of insight.

Very good. And I'm sure by now you must realise what I was up to with the cross-examination. But first, let me ventilate my grouse about the validity/logic of your argument.

Your argument that Ajahn Brahm teaches and describes an asaññasamadhi can be very easily simplified into this matrix-

Your premise - If no sañña in Jhana, then no comprehension in Jhana.
AB's premise - In jhana, there is no comprehension.

Your conclusion - Therefore, AB's jhanas are asañña.

Sigh, why must you commit the Fallacy of Denying the Consequent this time?

Alternatively, you might protest that the argument should be expressed as follows -

Your premise - If there is comprehension in Jhana, then there is sañña in Jhana.
AB's premise - In jhana, there is no comprehension.

Your conclusion - Therefore, AB's jhanas are asañña.

You'll still end up committing another fallacy, ie the Fallacy of Denying the Antecedent.

Let me know if you need me to convert these matrices into Symbolic Logic, so that the maths shines through the words.

Leaving aside the illogical argumentation, your concession above that one must vipassati with Dhamma-vicaya immediately falsifies your premise in the first argument. It also means that in the alternative argument, one of the premises has been suppressed, and the first premise is also false in and of itself.

I hope you're not going to brush this aside now with grumbles about my being a nit-picking ninny.

[Sylvester]

That, IMHO, is the plain and simple meaning of kāmā in the vivicc'eva kāmehi formula of 1st Jhana.

The kāmehi refers to both the objects of sensual pleasure (vatthukāmā) and the defilements of sensual pleasure (kilesakāmā).

Absolutely. I did not disagree with you. I merely drew your attention to how the redactors of the Mahaniddesa elected the nexus construction, instead of the junction, in order to give rise to a non-restrictive predication for the vatthukāmā. To refresh your memory - viewtopic.php?f=23&t=6785&p=109560&hilit=vatthuk%C4%81m%C4%81#p109560

[Modus.Ponens]

I think one can state that they are logicaly equivalent, thus rendering your colourful argument futile.

[Sylvester]

I think one can state that they are logicaly equivalent, thus rendering your colourful argument futile.

If you state so.

Sure, the 1st premises are mutually convertible into modus ponens and modus tollens equivalent, but that does not alter the analysis of the fallacies.

[Modus.Ponens]

Your premise - If there is comprehension in Jhana, then there is sañña in Jhana.
AB's premise - In jhana, there is no comprehension.

Your conclusion - Therefore, AB's jhanas are asañña.

One can also say that if there is sañña in jhana, then there is comprehension in jhana. This makes the deduction correct.

[morning mist]

The commentary on MN 127 specifically says that

Aren't we making huge leaps , and basing it on the commentaries as well.

Even if we go with what the commentary said and assume that it is the space kasina, aren't we still confusing the technique with the state. If we use the earth kasina ( pathavi kasina) , where a person should fix his eyes upon a spot of earth on the ground , there is no mention of any expanding out as space kasina , then now jhana will not be described as expansive. By the way ,Bhikkhu Bodhi translated that word as " exalted" , similar to lofty.

Commentaries that you mentioned explains " exalted mind " and " unsurpassed mind" as the mind pertaining to the level of the jhanas and immaterial meditative states in general.

" He understands exalted ( mahaggatam) mind as exalted mind, and unexalted ( amahaggatam) mind as unexalted mind. He understands surpassed mind as surpassed mind, and unsurpassed mind as unsurpassed mind. He understands concentrated mind as concentrated mind, and unconcentrated mind as unconcentrated mind. He understands liberated mind as liberated mind, and unliberated mind as unliberated mind. "- Satipatthana Sutta

The original text called the four jhanas as samadhi, samma samadhi. This has to do with concentration .

"his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered"

But if you want to go with the commentary , then feel free to .

With Metta,

[morning mist]

By the way nathan, you mentioned that you experienced four jhanas of Samma Samadhi and various formless states, were you able to recall many fold past lives and have knowledge of the passing away and reappearance of beings as the Buddha and his disciples did after they attained these states, or are the states that you called Samma samadhi and formless states different than the one they practice ?


With metta,

Hi Morning Mist
Those subjects take us off topic here and such discussions never go well in internet forums. Discussions about rebirth and Jhana are like the two feet that Theravadan pundits frequently appear compelled to shoot before trying to walk anywhere. I have noted some experiences along those lines in more recent years. Noting like that happened immediately after encountering these concentrated states or the cessation of all dependent conditions for the first time.

For many years I had no idea that anyone had anything to say about what I had encountered or anything more to add in relation to it but it did have a predominant influence on my life. I was unable to follow along in keeping with the christian faith of my family because I honestly could not agree with their faith. I don't think this would have happened if I weren't held to such a high moral standard of conduct throughout my childhood and youth and this did not change my behavior in that respect. I was subjected to a lot of misbehavior from other children throughout my years in public school because of the way I conducted myself and my refusal to act like other young boys but I felt compelled to continue maintaining conduct that was honest, restrained and peaceful even when the treatment I received was very unpleasant.

When I discovered that the Tipitaka still existed and that much of it had been translated I was very very interested to read it based on the few fragments of discourses that I had encountered in quotations in various buddhist books. When I began to read the suttas for the first time I was so taken by it that I couldn't sleep for days and just continued to read and re-read the discourses with complete amazement. There was no doubt in my mind that the Buddha was worthy of my highest esteem and respect. When I discovered what it meant I reflected on my own views in regards to similar things for a few months and then went for refuge with no hesitation.

For about five years before I discovered the Tipitaka texts all I had to refer to was a copy of the Visuddhimagga I had found in a used book store. During the time when this was all the information that I had I thought that perhaps the jhanas were something deeper than what I found and find in my own experience with concentration and similarly that insights were something other than the insights that I had encountered but after many years of continued daily meditation practice and serious reflection I was eventually forced to accept the practical impossibility as there simply was and is nothing more or deeper to be found, at least in my case.

Over the last ten years or so I have been working to overcome the fetters and taints and meditating on the outflows and so on. I am deeply and incomparably indebted to the Buddha and to the centuries of stewardship of his Sangha for his teachings about all of these central human concerns and to the many fine bhikkhus, ajahns, translators and scholars who have contributed such richness to my understanding of early Buddhism and provided so much insight into the invaluable and unparalleled guidance and instruction that the Buddha gave to all beings who yearn for freedom from being and becoming.

Hi Nathan,

Thanks for sharing the story of how you embarked on the path. May your path be fruitful.

With metta,

[Sylvester]

Your premise - If there is comprehension in Jhana, then there is sañña in Jhana.
AB's premise - In jhana, there is no comprehension.

Your conclusion - Therefore, AB's jhanas are asañña.

One can also say that if there is sañña in jhana, then there is comprehension in jhana. This makes the deduction correct.

Do note that I was discussing Geoff's earlier argument which were based on statements such as -

It is apperception which differentiates, not thought.

Vipassanā doesn't require vitakka and/or vicāra. It requires apperception (saññā), which is functional in all four jhānas.

It is also possible to develop vipassanā while abiding in jhāna. MN 111 describes this, as does the Abhidhammapiṭaka. Of course, if one is abiding in a non-perceptive attainment then there is no possibility of apperception or insight.

In particular, his statement quoted last above can only be expressed as -

If there is no sañña in Jhana, then there is no comprehension in Jhana.

This statement is not logically equivalent or convertible to your statement -

If there is sañña in Jhana, then there is comprehension in Jhana.

I can see where your argument is going -

Your premise - If there is sañña in Jhana, then there is comprehension in Jhana.
AB's premise - In jhana, there is no comprehension.

Your conclusion - Therefore, AB's jhanas are asañña.

And as far as modus tollens goes, it's a perfectly logical argument.

BUT, is your premise true or complete? You see, with Geoff's latest concession that one can only vipassati with Dhamma-vicaya, your premise will have to be revised to -

"If there is (sañña + dhammavicaya) in Jhana, then there is comprehension in Jhana".

I'm sure you do not need me to demonstrate how interposing Ajahn Brahm's premise in the argument cannot lead to the conclusion of asañña Jhanas. For the modus tollens to work, the entire (sañña + dhammavicaya) proposition has to be negated. Negation of dhammavicaya will not entail negation of sañña alone.

And I indeed affirm the negation of the proposition (sañña + dhammavicaya) in Jhana. Because I believe that there can be no dhammavicaya without the vacisankharas, I believe that dhammavicaya is not possible in the Jhanas. The absence of dhammavicaya in Jhanas negates the proposition (sañña + dhammavicaya) as a whole, but there is nothing in this logical manouvere to negate the sañña on its own.

[Modus.Ponens]

I must say I don't understand half of what you say because of the pali terms. It would be considerate to use english with pali in brackets.

Anyway, I was making a purely logical exercise until I realised that you are trying to say that Ajahn Brahm's jhanas have perception. Is this what you're trying to say?

[Sylvester]

I must say I don't understand half of what you say because of the pali terms. It would be considerate to use english with pali in brackets.

Anyway, I was making a purely logical exercise until I realised that you are trying to say that Ajahn Brahm's jhanas have perception. Is this what you're trying to say?

Yes, that is what Ajahn Brahm says, and that is how his students understand it.

I wish this Byzantine maze could be simplified by just using English terms. The problem is, without the Pali text, some of the implications of the dhamma-s (states/phenomena) being discussed do not come out at all in the English.

Yes, the majority of the readers will most likely be put off by the Pali terminology. But for the participants, the Pali terminology cuts out a lot of guess-work that come with the English

eg Discrimination of States versus Investigation of States, or

eg thinking & examination versus initial application of mind and sustained application of mind, or

another example from yesterday - sañña which ended up being translated as "sensation" versus the more conventional "perception" and "apperception".

I pray you're not going to suggest we be banished to the wilderness of the Pali sub-forum, because of our paliraga (lust for Pali)...

[morning mist]

Hi Nana,

Just because the aggregates are impermanent, unsatisfactory, and selfless doesn't mean that they aren't to be engaged for meditative development.

We should be calming it ( sanna ) down instead of engaging it to stir it up . According to the Anapanasati sutta:


5. ‘I shall breathe in experiencing piti (rapture) ’; trains thus, ‘I shall breathe out experiencing piti (rapture) ’;

6. He trains thus, ‘I shall breathe in experiencing sukha’; he trains thus, ‘I shall breathe out experiencing sukha’;

7. He trains thus, ‘I shall breathe in experiencing the mental formation’ ( perception and feeling) ; He trains thus, ‘I shall breathe out experiencing the mental formation’ ( perception and feeling) ;

8. He trains thus, ‘I shall breathe in calming the mental formation’( perception and feeling) ; He trains thus, ‘I shall breathe out calming the mental formation ( perception and feeling)’ - Anapanasati sutta

Note: "perception and feeling are the mental formation" according to MN 44

With Metta,

[Modus.Ponens]

I must say I don't understand half of what you say because of the pali terms. It would be considerate to use english with pali in brackets.

Anyway, I was making a purely logical exercise until I realised that you are trying to say that Ajahn Brahm's jhanas have perception. Is this what you're trying to say?

Yes, that is what Ajahn Brahm says, and that is how his students understand it.

I wish this Byzantine maze could be simplified by just using English terms. The problem is, without the Pali text, some of the implications of the dhamma-s (states/phenomena) being discussed do not come out at all in the English.

Yes, the majority of the readers will most likely be put off by the Pali terminology. But for the participants, the Pali terminology cuts out a lot of guess-work that come with the English

eg Discrimination of States versus Investigation of States, or

eg thinking & examination versus initial application of mind and sustained application of mind, or

another example from yesterday - sañña which ended up being translated as "sensation" versus the more conventional "perception" and "apperception".

I pray you're not going to suggest we be banished to the wilderness of the Pali sub-forum, because of our paliraga (lust for Pali)...

I have wondered a number of times if you were trolling and my suspicions increased now. Don't you understand that calling a samadhi non perceptive doesn't mean it's a categorical statement? I don't want to put words in Geoff's mouth but I think a categorization as non perceptive doesn't mean there can't be any perception whatsoever. That would be the ninth jhana and only anagamis and arahats can do that.

[Sylvester]

I have wondered a number of times if you were trolling and my suspicions increased now. Don't you understand that calling a samadhi non perceptive doesn't mean it's a categorical statement? I don't want to put words in Geoff's mouth but I think a categorization as non perceptive doesn't mean there can't be any perception whatsoever. That would be the ninth jhana and only anagamis and arahats can do that.

I'll leave it to Geoff to clarify the intent. But I thought the context spoke for itself.

Not trolling, just strolling...

[Ñāṇa]

Don't you understand that calling a samadhi non perceptive doesn't mean it's a categorical statement?

It wasn't a categorical statement. What I said was: "Ven. Brahmavamso's teachings on jhāna are either a non-apperceptive attainment (asaññasamāpatti) or dangerously close to being one. His understanding of mindfulness (sati), full awareness (sampajañña), and apperception (saññā) in the context of jhāna bear no resemblance to how these dhammas are defined and used in the canonical literature."

I hope you're not going to brush this aside now with grumbles about my being a nit-picking ninny.

I rarely ever grumble. But the heart of the matter is the assertion made by Ven. Brahmavamso and his associates that he is teaching the Buddha's sammāsamādhi, and that most everyone else isn't. Coupled with this is the dubious hermeneutic methodology of his associates such as Ven. Sujato and Piya Tan who have attempted to validate this assertion by forcing the suttas to agree with Brahmavamso's jhāna. To this end they have either intentionally or unintentionally ignored many suttas and all of the earliest strata of commentary (canoncial, para-canoncial, and post-canonical) which doesn't accord with their thesis. This is no different than the hermeneutic methodology used by Ven. Ṭhānissaro to validate his "mind like fire unbound" theory.

If we compare the descriptions of Ven. Brahmavamso's jhāna with the suttas and commentaries the descriptions and definition of terms don't correspond.

All the best,

Geoff

[Sylvester]

I'm thankful for the clarification. At least it puts in perspective these other statements which you made in the course of this discussion -

Good luck with that "jhāna" devoid of comprehension. I trust that such a "jhāna" will result in a long rest in a non-perceptive realm as an asaññasatta.

One who practices sammāsamādhi instead of asaññisamādhi learns the difference between apperception (saññā) and thought (vitakka). It is apperception which differentiates, not thought.

It is also possible to develop vipassanā while abiding in jhāna. MN 111 describes this, as does the Abhidhammapiṭaka. Of course, if one is abiding in a non-perceptive attainment then there is no possibility of apperception or insight.

May I take it that none of these 3 statements of yours were intended to be a reference to Ajahn Brahm's description of the Jhanas? May I also take it that you are not saying that the Jhanas as described by Ajahn Brahm are asañña?

I just want to be sure what your position really is, in case this issue flares up again, like a flame that has not been unbound.