The Commentaries are unreliable: I know better

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Re: The Commentaries are unreliable: I know better

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:49 pm

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:How about the monks that killed themselves after being given the practice of the repulsiveness of the body by the Buddha. After giving that subject for meditation, the Buddha goes on retreat for a time, comes back to find sangha a bit thinned out. Now, the commentary gives an unbelievably silly story about that and Ven Bodhi to his credit does not seem to buy it. SN V 320-22 CDB 1773-4.



p 1951 of Bodhi: anapanasamyutta commentary (Bodhi)SPK: ""why did he[buddha]
speak thus?[saying that he was going into seclusion for 2 weeks]? In
the past, it is said, five hundred men earned their living as hunters.
They were reborn in hell, but later, through some good kamma , took
birth as human and went forth as monks..However, a portion of their
original bad kamma had gained the opportunity to ripen during this
fortnight and was due to bring on their deaths both by suicide and
homicide. The blessed one foresaw this and realized he could do nothing
about it.....Among those monks some were wordling some were sotapanna,
some sakaadgami, some anagamai
The Buddha spoke of foulness to remove their attachment to the body so
they would lose their fear of death and could thus be reborn in
heaven. ..he went into seclusion to avoid being present when destiny
took its toll."""


Doesn't that prove how vital the Commentaries are to understand what really happened. The Buddha is SammasamBuddha- he has knowledge of all of this. He asked Ananda what had happened not becuase he didn't know but because sometimes Buddha's ask questions in order to introduce a teaching.
"Doesn't that prove how vital the Commentaries are" Not really. It shows how convoluted the commentaries can be in trying to explain away difficulties in the suttas.


Bodhi's dismisal of this Commentary is as telling as his support of those bhikkhunis ordained from a chinese lineage being called Theravada- he really doesn't believe the Theravada is the heir of the Dhamma- they are as liable to introduce porkies and tell outright lies, as their Mahayana cousins so he apparently thinks..
Ven Bodhi. There is no argument in this statement; just ad hominem.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The Commentaries are unreliable: I know better

Postby Dmytro » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:12 pm

Hi Robert,

Bodhi's dismisal of this Commentary is as telling as his support of those bhikkhunis ordained from a chinese lineage being called Theravada


Offtopic, just to clarify things a bit:
http://www.dhammalight.com/corresponden ... _06_B.html

Best wishes, Dmytro
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Re: The Commentaries are unreliable: I know better

Postby legolas » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:28 am

meindzai wrote:
legolas wrote:
This argument does not really hold water. One could easily say the commentaries were written long ago in a land far far away. A point that I have noticed that is so smoothly sidestepped by commentarial lovers is that the suttas are the Buddha's words - I'm sorry I feel I should repeat that THE SUTTA'S ARE THE BUDDHA'S WORDS.


Actually not one person, including Robert (who is defending the commentaries) has disputed this.

And I think you are pegging people too sharply into categories here. "Commentarial lovers?" Really?

The extent of commentarial works and their variance with the suttas, highlight an important point. Either the Buddha was an incompetent teacher, requiring vast amounts of commentary from more erudite scholars who could see what the Buddha really meant to say


The existence of the commentaries do not imply this any more than commentary on any other kind of literature implies incompetence on part of the author. Commentary on Dante's Inferno doesn't imply that Dante didn't get his point across, it simply gives us some guidance and clarification. Commentary on the Suttas helps us bridge the gap between our modern perceptions and a different time and culture. I do not deny that there is another gap between us and the commentaries.

OR - the Buddha was the highest being, PEERLESS teacher of men, who left the sutta/vinaya for the world to use to escape their suffering and did this with an open hand- a teaching which would last the millenia, with no need for people to recreate the meaning of the sutta's.


You are supremely wise if you can understand the Suttas without any guidance from books, teachers, discussion, etc. If that's the case then you are to be commended. But the rest of us dolts appreciate whatever assistance we can get in "unpacking" the meaning (as Cooran has pointed out many times) of the Suttas. This does not equate to putting them on the same level as the Suttas, which I think yields too many dissonances to be useful for practice.

-M


Hi,

You are attributing to me, claims I have not made. My understanding of the suttas comes through real live teachers. A big part of the effort & discrimination I mentioned is in listening to and visiting teachers. I do not rely on age old commentaries that appear to me, to be at odds with the suttas. The idea that our perceptions/time/culture etc. would have a real impact on our understanding of the suttas seems strange. There may be the odd cultural thing in the suttas, but for the most part I see the suttas as timeless. The comparison with Dante does not really hold up. The sheer volume of the commentaries indicates more than mere guidance and clarification (as if the Buddha needed to be clarified).
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Re: The Commentaries are unreliable: I know better

Postby meindzai » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:24 pm

legolas wrote:You are attributing to me, claims I have not made.


Ok, then we'll proceed to the dubious claims you make here.

My understanding of the suttas comes through real live teachers. A big part of the effort & discrimination I mentioned is in listening to and visiting teachers.


Who no doubt are familiar with the commentaries if they are teaching and talking about them.

I do not rely on age old commentaries that appear to me, to be at odds with the suttas.


No, only on teachers who use. They are not "add odds" with the suttas. There are occasional discrepencies, and finding and discussing these is a big part of Theravada Study, especially amongst monks and scholars, who then use that process of clarification in their dealings with us.

The sheer volume


Is a result of the sheer volume:

Image

of the Canon itself, and the fact that there have been 2600 years to comment on it.

-M
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Re: The Commentaries are unreliable: I know better

Postby legolas » Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:31 am

meindzai wrote:
legolas wrote:You are attributing to me, claims I have not made.


Ok, then we'll proceed to the dubious claims you make here.

My understanding of the suttas comes through real live teachers. A big part of the effort & discrimination I mentioned is in listening to and visiting teachers.


Who no doubt are familiar with the commentaries if they are teaching and talking about them.

I do not rely on age old commentaries that appear to me, to be at odds with the suttas.


No, only on teachers who use. They are not "add odds" with the suttas. There are occasional discrepencies, and finding and discussing these is a big part of Theravada Study, especially amongst monks and scholars, who then use that process of clarification in their dealings with us.

The sheer volume


Is a result of the sheer volume:

Image

of the Canon itself, and the fact that there have been 2600 years to comment on it.

-M


My teachers are familiar with the commentaries but either choose not to refer to them or do so only tangentially, they do not refer to them when important doctrinal issues arise.
You say they are not at odds with the suttas :-

access/momentary concentration
dry insight
nana knowledges
atomism
path/fruit discrepancies
definition of bodhisatta
definition of jhana
no mention of "Abhidhamma teachings" in suttas (closed fist teaching)
Each one of these has been debated long and hard elsewhere, my point is that to a lot of people including myself find these teachings are not compatible with the suttas. I personally think that the "clarification" you talk of is a little bit suspect. I would much rather have any "clarification" come from a real live teacher who I can question and who does not place his reliance and faith in works that are far removed from the original teachings.

BTW that is a nice picture of the scriptures. Do you know how much of the cabinet is taken up by the suttas?
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Re: The Commentaries are unreliable: I know better

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:46 am

legolas wrote:access/momentary concentration
dry insight
nana knowledges
atomism
path/fruit discrepancies
definition of bodhisatta
definition of jhana
no mention of "Abhidhamma teachings" in suttas (closed fist teaching)
Each one of these has been debated long and hard elsewhere, my point is that to a lot of people including myself find these teachings are not compatible with the suttas. I personally think that the "clarification" you talk of is a little bit suspect. I would much rather have any "clarification" come from a real live teacher who I can question and who does not place his reliance and faith in works that are far removed from the original teachings.

BTW that is a nice picture of the scriptures. Do you know how much of the cabinet is taken up by the suttas?
As to how "far removed" these various item are from the original teachings is a matter of debate, some of which is driven by a lack of understanding of some of things actually are in actual practice, such as "dry insight."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The Commentaries are unreliable: I know better

Postby legolas » Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:55 am

tiltbillings wrote:
legolas wrote:access/momentary concentration
dry insight
nana knowledges
atomism
path/fruit discrepancies
definition of bodhisatta
definition of jhana
no mention of "Abhidhamma teachings" in suttas (closed fist teaching)
Each one of these has been debated long and hard elsewhere, my point is that to a lot of people including myself find these teachings are not compatible with the suttas. I personally think that the "clarification" you talk of is a little bit suspect. I would much rather have any "clarification" come from a real live teacher who I can question and who does not place his reliance and faith in works that are far removed from the original teachings.

BTW that is a nice picture of the scriptures. Do you know how much of the cabinet is taken up by the suttas?
As to how "far removed" these various item are from the original teachings is a matter of debate, some of which is driven by a lack of understanding of some of things actually are in actual practice, such as "dry insight."


It certainly is a matter of debate and discernment. A lack of understanding and discernment is certainly a big problem.
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Re: The Commentaries are unreliable: I know better

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:59 am

legolas wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
legolas wrote:access/momentary concentration
dry insight
nana knowledges
atomism
path/fruit discrepancies
definition of bodhisatta
definition of jhana
no mention of "Abhidhamma teachings" in suttas (closed fist teaching)
Each one of these has been debated long and hard elsewhere, my point is that to a lot of people including myself find these teachings are not compatible with the suttas. I personally think that the "clarification" you talk of is a little bit suspect. I would much rather have any "clarification" come from a real live teacher who I can question and who does not place his reliance and faith in works that are far removed from the original teachings.

BTW that is a nice picture of the scriptures. Do you know how much of the cabinet is taken up by the suttas?
As to how "far removed" these various item are from the original teachings is a matter of debate, some of which is driven by a lack of understanding of some of things actually are in actual practice, such as "dry insight."


It certainly is a matter of debate and discernment. A lack of understanding and discernment is certainly a big problem.
Abhidhamma Pitaka stuff can be quite different from the much later works, meaning that may not all be safe to read into the Pitaka texts the atomism of the much later works.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The Commentaries are unreliable: I know better

Postby Alex123 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:47 pm

legolas wrote:access/momentary concentration


Jhāna and all 37 factors of awakening can last for a finger snap (second).

See this chapter in AN book of 1's PTS A 1.38
18. Aparaaccharāsaṅghātavaggo
382. If the bhikkhu could raise his mind to the first jhana for the fraction of a second,
405. If he develops the mental faculty of concentration, for the fraction of a second,...
410. If he develops the power of concentration for the fraction of a second,...
417. If he develops the enlightenment factor concentration for the fraction of a second,...
426. If he develops right concentration for the fraction of a second,...
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ali-e.html

legolas wrote:path/fruit discrepancies


Path can be momentary (last a short duration).

419. If he develops right view for the fraction of a second...
420. If he develops right thoughts for the fraction of a second...
421. If he develops right speech for the fraction of a second...
422. If he develops right action for the fraction of a second...
423. If he develops right livelihood for the fraction of a second...
424. If he develops right endeavor for the fraction of a second...
425. If he develops right mindfulness for the fraction of a second...
426. If he develops right concentration for the fraction of a second...
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ali-e.html

These things can occur for such a short time (fraction of a second, one second, for a fingersnap, etc). This explains suttas (ex: bahiya sutta) where a worldling could become an Arahant within minutes.


legolas wrote:dry insight


In Vimuttāyatanasuttaṃ (AN 5.3.6. or AN 5.3.26 PTS A 3.21) there are description of 5 (hearing, teaching, reciting, considering, reflecting on samadhi sign with wisdom) occasions for liberation. 4 of 5 are not due to "meditation".
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ggo-e.html


Many suttas do support that ascertion when the describe a monk becoming awakened during listening to the sutta.


1. Samādhi and sati are not absolutely required for stream entry.
Suppabuddha the Leper became stream enterer while he heard the Buddha for the first time. As a stream enterer he acquired these qualities Confidence (saddhaṃ), Virtue(sīlaṃ), Hearing/Learning (sutaṃ), Relinquishment (cāgaṃ), Wisdom (paññaṃ). Samādhi and even sati was not one of them. So if he could do it, others can as well. -Ud 5.3

2. Wisdom (paññā) cuts of unwholesome qualities. –Snp 5.1
3. Concentration is not the essence. - SN22.88 (6) Assaji
4. Jhāna is just “pleasant abiding here and now” that does not efface things like wrong view. -MN8
5. Reaching 4 Jhānas, and being a monk is no guarantee that one will not be tempted by sensual pleasures and disrobe on account of them. - AN 6.60


Thus the debate is over. The sufficient qualities for stream entry according to the suttas are:
Confidence (saddhaṃ), Virtue(sīlaṃ), Hearing/Learning (sutaṃ), Relinquishment (cāgaṃ), Wisdom (paññaṃ)

Samādhi is not required for stream-entry. I hope that this will settle the great Samatha Vs Vipassana debate.



With the destruction of the first three fetters, he is a stream-winner, not subject to states of deprivation, headed for self-awakening for sure."…
But on encountering the Dhamma & Discipline made known by the Tathagata, he acquired conviction, virtue, learning, relinquishment, & discernment

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Whatever streams there are in the world: their blocking is mindfulness, mindfulness is their restraint — I tell you with discernment (paññā) they're finally stopped.
[According to the Culaniddesa (Nd.II), the streams that "flow every which way" are the streams of craving, views, conceit, defilement, corruption, and ignorance that flow out the six sense media.]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Those recluses and brahmins, Assaji, who regard concentration as the essence, who identify concentration with recluseship, failing to obtain concentration might think, ‘Let us not fall away!’” - SN22.88 (6) Assaji Ven.BB Trans.

"It may be, Cunda, that some monk, detached from sense-objects, detached from unsalutary ideas, enters into the first absorption that is born of detachment, accompanied by thought-conception and discursive thinking, and filled with rapture and joy, and he then might think: 'I am abiding in effacement.' But in the Noble One's discipline it is not these [attainments] that are called 'effacement'; in the Noble One's discipline they are called 'abidings in ease here and now
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html


a certain person secluded from sensual desires ... re ... attains to the fourth higher state of mind. Thinking I am the gainer of the fourth higher state of mind [Jhāna] he mixes up with the bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay disciples male and female. kings and the ministers of kings, with those of other faiths and their disciples. Abiding with that association, diffused and engaged in talk, the mind touched with greed and corrupted he would give up the holy life and come to low life.
6. Hatthisariputtasuttaṃ Ý Venerable Hatthisariputta
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ggo-e.html


legolas wrote:nana knowledges


Insight knowledges (ñāṇa) are frequently encountered.

Stages of purification: MN24

"purity in terms of virtue is simply for the sake of purity in terms of mind. Purity in terms of mind is simply for the sake of purity in terms of view. Purity in terms of view is simply for the sake of purity in terms of the overcoming of perplexity. Purity in terms of the overcoming of perplexity is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision of the way. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision of the way is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision is simply for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging. "
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

DN34 (Dasuttarasuttaṃ), 9 stages of purification: Book of 9s PTS 3.288
‘‘katame nava dhammā bhāvetabbā? Nava pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgāni – sīlavisuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ, cittavisuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ, diṭṭhivisuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ, kaṅkhāvitaraṇavisuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ, maggāmaggañāṇadassana – visuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ, paṭipadāñāṇadassanavisuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ, ñāṇadassanavisuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ, paññāvisuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ, vimuttivisuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ. Ime nava dhammā bhāvetabbā.
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: The Commentaries are unreliable: I know better

Postby legolas » Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:13 pm

Alex123 wrote:
legolas wrote:access/momentary concentration


Jhāna and all 37 factors of awakening can last for a finger snap (second).

See this chapter in AN book of 1's PTS A 1.38
18. Aparaaccharāsaṅghātavaggo
382. If the bhikkhu could raise his mind to the first jhana for the fraction of a second,
405. If he develops the mental faculty of concentration, for the fraction of a second,...
410. If he develops the power of concentration for the fraction of a second,...
417. If he develops the enlightenment factor concentration for the fraction of a second,...
426. If he develops right concentration for the fraction of a second,...
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ali-e.html

legolas wrote:path/fruit discrepancies


Path can be momentary (last a short duration).

419. If he develops right view for the fraction of a second...
420. If he develops right thoughts for the fraction of a second...
421. If he develops right speech for the fraction of a second...
422. If he develops right action for the fraction of a second...
423. If he develops right livelihood for the fraction of a second...
424. If he develops right endeavor for the fraction of a second...
425. If he develops right mindfulness for the fraction of a second...
426. If he develops right concentration for the fraction of a second...
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ali-e.html

These things can occur for such a short time (fraction of a second, one second, for a fingersnap, etc). This explains suttas (ex: bahiya sutta) where a worldling could become an Arahant within minutes.


legolas wrote:dry insight


In Vimuttāyatanasuttaṃ (AN 5.3.6. or AN 5.3.26 PTS A 3.21) there are description of 5 (hearing, teaching, reciting, considering, reflecting on samadhi sign with wisdom) occasions for liberation. 4 of 5 are not due to "meditation".
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ggo-e.html


Many suttas do support that ascertion when the describe a monk becoming awakened during listening to the sutta.


1. Samādhi and sati are not absolutely required for stream entry.
Suppabuddha the Leper became stream enterer while he heard the Buddha for the first time. As a stream enterer he acquired these qualities Confidence (saddhaṃ), Virtue(sīlaṃ), Hearing/Learning (sutaṃ), Relinquishment (cāgaṃ), Wisdom (paññaṃ). Samādhi and even sati was not one of them. So if he could do it, others can as well. -Ud 5.3

2. Wisdom (paññā) cuts of unwholesome qualities. –Snp 5.1
3. Concentration is not the essence. - SN22.88 (6) Assaji
4. Jhāna is just “pleasant abiding here and now” that does not efface things like wrong view. -MN8
5. Reaching 4 Jhānas, and being a monk is no guarantee that one will not be tempted by sensual pleasures and disrobe on account of them. - AN 6.60


Thus the debate is over. The sufficient qualities for stream entry according to the suttas are:
Confidence (saddhaṃ), Virtue(sīlaṃ), Hearing/Learning (sutaṃ), Relinquishment (cāgaṃ), Wisdom (paññaṃ)

Samādhi is not required for stream-entry. I hope that this will settle the great Samatha Vs Vipassana debate.



With the destruction of the first three fetters, he is a stream-winner, not subject to states of deprivation, headed for self-awakening for sure."…
But on encountering the Dhamma & Discipline made known by the Tathagata, he acquired conviction, virtue, learning, relinquishment, & discernment

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Whatever streams there are in the world: their blocking is mindfulness, mindfulness is their restraint — I tell you with discernment (paññā) they're finally stopped.
[According to the Culaniddesa (Nd.II), the streams that "flow every which way" are the streams of craving, views, conceit, defilement, corruption, and ignorance that flow out the six sense media.]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Those recluses and brahmins, Assaji, who regard concentration as the essence, who identify concentration with recluseship, failing to obtain concentration might think, ‘Let us not fall away!’” - SN22.88 (6) Assaji Ven.BB Trans.

"It may be, Cunda, that some monk, detached from sense-objects, detached from unsalutary ideas, enters into the first absorption that is born of detachment, accompanied by thought-conception and discursive thinking, and filled with rapture and joy, and he then might think: 'I am abiding in effacement.' But in the Noble One's discipline it is not these [attainments] that are called 'effacement'; in the Noble One's discipline they are called 'abidings in ease here and now
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html


a certain person secluded from sensual desires ... re ... attains to the fourth higher state of mind. Thinking I am the gainer of the fourth higher state of mind [Jhāna] he mixes up with the bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay disciples male and female. kings and the ministers of kings, with those of other faiths and their disciples. Abiding with that association, diffused and engaged in talk, the mind touched with greed and corrupted he would give up the holy life and come to low life.
6. Hatthisariputtasuttaṃ Ý Venerable Hatthisariputta
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ggo-e.html


legolas wrote:nana knowledges


Insight knowledges (ñāṇa) are frequently encountered.

Stages of purification: MN24

"purity in terms of virtue is simply for the sake of purity in terms of mind. Purity in terms of mind is simply for the sake of purity in terms of view. Purity in terms of view is simply for the sake of purity in terms of the overcoming of perplexity. Purity in terms of the overcoming of perplexity is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision of the way. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision of the way is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision is simply for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging. "
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

DN34 (Dasuttarasuttaṃ), 9 stages of purification: Book of 9s PTS 3.288
‘‘katame nava dhammā bhāvetabbā? Nava pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgāni – sīlavisuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ, cittavisuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ, diṭṭhivisuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ, kaṅkhāvitaraṇavisuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ, maggāmaggañāṇadassana – visuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ, paṭipadāñāṇadassanavisuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ, ñāṇadassanavisuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ, paññāvisuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ, vimuttivisuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ. Ime nava dhammā bhāvetabbā.


I never suggested that stream entry could not be attained by listening to a sutta or that a path moment MIGHT only last for a second. Stream entry does not require meditation - I never said it did.

Jhana can last for a finger snap, this is not momentary concentration. It appears from the suttas that when a fruition occurs the factors of jhana arise beforehand (even the fruit of stream entry) jhana can occur in a non meditative setting.

Nana knowledges are FREQUENTLY mentioned! You must have a different set of suttas than the one I have. The ONE sutta you mention does not correspond to the nana knowledges as taught by certain groups in any way shape or form.

I do not deny that experiences that are in line with "nana knowledges" do occur when practicing certain types of meditation, my contention is whether these are within the Buddha's teachings.
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Re: The Commentaries are unreliable: I know better

Postby Alex123 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:29 pm

Legolas,

so what specific discrepancies you see between commentaries and the suttas? Is it possible that some of these differences is due to phrasing, rather than meaning?

With metta,

Alex
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: The Commentaries are unreliable: I know better

Postby legolas » Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:15 am

Alex123 wrote:Legolas,

so what specific discrepancies you see between commentaries and the suttas? Is it possible that some of these differences is due to phrasing, rather than meaning?

With metta,

Alex


Using the examples you gave.......

Momentary concentration is not equivalent to jhana lasting a finger snap. Momentary concentration as a means to insight is not mentioned in suttas.

Path/fruit moment do not have to occur one after the other, actually quite the opposite is frequently pointed to with dhamma/faith follower. That is not to say that path/fruit cannot follow immediately as again this is pointed to in the suttas.

The process of awakening descibed in the suttas is very different to that described in the commentaries. You say that samadhi is not required and the argument is over. Even with the example you gave re: the leper who became a stream winner gaining the fruit you fail to mention the jhana qualities that arose whilst listening to the Buddha. Now if you have issue that jhana can arise whilst listening to a sutta, then I point you to the fact that the suttas appear to show that such a thing is possible, whilst the commentaries most definitely do not. One thing worth mentioning is that I believe it is probably possible to attain the path without samadhi, so we may have some common ground.

If you define vippasana as contemplation & reflection, we may have a some more common ground about a dry insight worker attaining the first path, however if you define it as some sort of prescribed "technique" of "bare" awareness then we may not.
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Re: The Commentaries are unreliable: I know better

Postby Alex123 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:31 am

legolas wrote:Momentary concentration is not equivalent to jhana lasting a finger snap.


405. If he develops the mental faculty of concentration, for the fraction of a second,...

What is the difference in principle between that (and similar phrases) and what you call momentary concentration?


legolas wrote:Momentary concentration as a means to insight is not mentioned in suttas.


Because for right view, two conditions are a must:

"Friend, there are two conditions for the arising of right view: the voice of another and appropriate attention (yoniso manasikāra).
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Appropriate attention as a quality of a monk in training: nothing else does so much for attaining the superlative goal. A monk, striving appropriately, attains the ending of stress.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-016


And samma-samādhi is few factors AFTER right view (for which appropriate attention is required).


In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Please note that right concentration comes a few factors AFTER right view. And right view requires yoniso manasikāra + voice of another.


legolas wrote:Path/fruit moment do not have to occur one after the other, actually quite the opposite is frequently pointed to with dhamma/faith follower.


What exactly do you mean? That phala can come before magga?


With metta,

Alex
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: The Commentaries are unreliable: I know better

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:35 am

Greeting Alex,

Alex123 wrote:
legolas wrote:Path/fruit moment do not have to occur one after the other, actually quite the opposite is frequently pointed to with dhamma/faith follower.


What exactly do you mean? That phala can come before magga?

Of course that's not what it means. :strawman:

This is referring to the notion of a lesser stream-entrant... either the faith-follower or dhamma-follower, who is guaranteed to attain (at least) full stream-entry before death.

What legolas is saying is that it needn't be consecutive citta, magga and phala can be separated by a good many years.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The Commentaries are unreliable: I know better

Postby Alex123 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:57 am

retrofuturist wrote:
This is referring to the notion of a lesser stream-entrant... either the faith-follower or dhamma-follower, who is guaranteed to attain (at least) full stream-entry before death.

What legolas is saying is that it needn't be consecutive citta, magga and phala can be separated by a good many years.

Metta,
Retro. :)


I agree with that, though the 4 maggaphalas can also occur within minutes or so (such as in bahiya sutta).


With metta,

Alex
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Re: The Commentaries are unreliable: I know better

Postby legolas » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:22 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greeting Alex,

Alex123 wrote:
legolas wrote:Path/fruit moment do not have to occur one after the other, actually quite the opposite is frequently pointed to with dhamma/faith follower.


What exactly do you mean? That phala can come before magga?

Of course that's not what it means. :strawman:

This is referring to the notion of a lesser stream-entrant... either the faith-follower or dhamma-follower, who is guaranteed to attain (at least) full stream-entry before death.

What legolas is saying is that it needn't be consecutive citta, magga and phala can be separated by a good many years.

Metta,
Retro. :)


:thumbsup:
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Re: The Commentaries are unreliable: I know better

Postby legolas » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:23 am

Alex123 wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:
This is referring to the notion of a lesser stream-entrant... either the faith-follower or dhamma-follower, who is guaranteed to attain (at least) full stream-entry before death.

What legolas is saying is that it needn't be consecutive citta, magga and phala can be separated by a good many years.

Metta,
Retro. :)


I agree with that, though the 4 maggaphalas can also occur within minutes or so (such as in bahiya sutta).


With metta,

Alex


That is what I said..................

Path/fruit moment do not have to occur one after the other, actually quite the opposite is frequently pointed to with dhamma/faith follower. That is not to say that path/fruit cannot follow immediately as again this is pointed to in the suttas.

However commentarial material says that there is not and cannot be an interval between path/fruit.
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Re: The Commentaries are unreliable: I know better

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:12 am

Retro, Legolas,
retrofuturist wrote:What legolas is saying is that it needn't be consecutive citta, magga and phala can be separated by a good many years.

You are probably correct, but please provide some sutta references about path and fruit (as per guidelines for this forum)?

:anjali:
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Re: The Commentaries are unreliable: I know better

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:27 am

Greetings Mike,

Well, really the onus would be on legolas as it was his argument, but here is a sutta quotation anyway...

SN 25.1-10 wrote:"Monks, the eye is inconstant, changeable, alterable. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The mind is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"Forms... Sounds... Aromas... Flavors... Tactile sensations... Ideas are inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"Eye-consciousness... Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"Eye-contact... Ear-contact... Nose-contact... Tongue-contact... Body-contact... Intellect-contact is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"Feeling born of eye-contact... Feeling born of ear-contact... Feeling born of nose-contact... Feeling born of tongue-contact... Feeling born of body-contact... Feeling born of intellect-contact is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"Perception of forms... Perception of sounds... Perception of smells... Perception of tastes... Perception of tactile sensations... Perception of ideas is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"Intention for forms... Intention for sounds... Intention for smells... Intention for tastes... Intention for tactile sensations... Intention for ideas is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"Craving for forms... Craving for sounds... Craving for smells... Craving for tastes... Craving for tactile sensations... Craving for ideas is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"The earth property... The liquid property... The fire property... The wind property... The space property... The consciousness property is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"Form... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill (i.e. puthujjana). He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

Online source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream2.html

Furthermore, there is also the concept of the eightfold-ariyan assembly, constituting the path and fruit attainers, vis-a-vis the four noble statuses...

"It's eightfold when split by path-attainers and fruition-attainers." - Ven. Dhammanando
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=40&p=3346

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The Commentaries are unreliable: I know better

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:50 am

Thanks Retro.

I guess a supplementary question is what the faith-follower/dhamma-follower definition really means. Is it really "on the path", or a precursor to being on the path?

And is it really intended by the compilers of the Commentaries that those descriptions were supposed to be equivalent to the path/fruit description of stream entry and so on in the Abhidhamma and Commentaries. The Commentarial descriptions are presumably based in the accumulated experience of practitioners, and perhaps the terminology just shifted a little (as presumably happened with a five-fold, rather than four-fold classification of jhanas).

:anjali:
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