A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

[morning mist]

Hi Nana,

Just because the aggregates are impermanent, unsatisfactory, and selfless doesn't mean that they aren't to be engaged for meditative development.

We should be calming it ( sanna ) down instead of engaging it to stir it up . According to the Anapanasati sutta:


5. ‘I shall breathe in experiencing piti (rapture) ’; trains thus, ‘I shall breathe out experiencing piti (rapture) ’;

6. He trains thus, ‘I shall breathe in experiencing sukha’; he trains thus, ‘I shall breathe out experiencing sukha’;

7. He trains thus, ‘I shall breathe in experiencing the mental formation’ ( perception and feeling) ; He trains thus, ‘I shall breathe out experiencing the mental formation’ ( perception and feeling) ;

8. He trains thus, ‘I shall breathe in calming the mental formation’( perception and feeling) ; He trains thus, ‘I shall breathe out calming the mental formation ( perception and feeling)’ - Anapanasati sutta

Note: "perception and feeling are the mental formation" according to MN 44

With Metta,

[Modus.Ponens]

I must say I don't understand half of what you say because of the pali terms. It would be considerate to use english with pali in brackets.

Anyway, I was making a purely logical exercise until I realised that you are trying to say that Ajahn Brahm's jhanas have perception. Is this what you're trying to say?

Yes, that is what Ajahn Brahm says, and that is how his students understand it.

I wish this Byzantine maze could be simplified by just using English terms. The problem is, without the Pali text, some of the implications of the dhamma-s (states/phenomena) being discussed do not come out at all in the English.

Yes, the majority of the readers will most likely be put off by the Pali terminology. But for the participants, the Pali terminology cuts out a lot of guess-work that come with the English

eg Discrimination of States versus Investigation of States, or

eg thinking & examination versus initial application of mind and sustained application of mind, or

another example from yesterday - sañña which ended up being translated as "sensation" versus the more conventional "perception" and "apperception".

I pray you're not going to suggest we be banished to the wilderness of the Pali sub-forum, because of our paliraga (lust for Pali)...

I have wondered a number of times if you were trolling and my suspicions increased now. Don't you understand that calling a samadhi non perceptive doesn't mean it's a categorical statement? I don't want to put words in Geoff's mouth but I think a categorization as non perceptive doesn't mean there can't be any perception whatsoever. That would be the ninth jhana and only anagamis and arahats can do that.

[Sylvester]

I have wondered a number of times if you were trolling and my suspicions increased now. Don't you understand that calling a samadhi non perceptive doesn't mean it's a categorical statement? I don't want to put words in Geoff's mouth but I think a categorization as non perceptive doesn't mean there can't be any perception whatsoever. That would be the ninth jhana and only anagamis and arahats can do that.

I'll leave it to Geoff to clarify the intent. But I thought the context spoke for itself.

Not trolling, just strolling...

[Nyana]

Don't you understand that calling a samadhi non perceptive doesn't mean it's a categorical statement?

It wasn't a categorical statement. What I said was: "Ven. Brahmavamso's teachings on jhāna are either a non-apperceptive attainment (asaññasamāpatti) or dangerously close to being one. His understanding of mindfulness (sati), full awareness (sampajañña), and apperception (saññā) in the context of jhāna bear no resemblance to how these dhammas are defined and used in the canonical literature."

I hope you're not going to brush this aside now with grumbles about my being a nit-picking ninny.

I rarely ever grumble. But the heart of the matter is the assertion made by Ven. Brahmavamso and his associates that he is teaching the Buddha's sammāsamādhi, and that most everyone else isn't. Coupled with this is the dubious hermeneutic methodology of his associates such as Ven. Sujato and Piya Tan who have attempted to validate this assertion by forcing the suttas to agree with Brahmavamso's jhāna. To this end they have either intentionally or unintentionally ignored many suttas and all of the earliest strata of commentary (canoncial, para-canoncial, and post-canonical) which doesn't accord with their thesis. This is no different than the hermeneutic methodology used by Ven. Ṭhānissaro to validate his "mind like fire unbound" theory.

If we compare the descriptions of Ven. Brahmavamso's jhāna with the suttas and commentaries the descriptions and definition of terms don't correspond.

All the best,

Geoff

[Sylvester]

I'm thankful for the clarification. At least it puts in perspective these other statements which you made in the course of this discussion -

Good luck with that "jhāna" devoid of comprehension. I trust that such a "jhāna" will result in a long rest in a non-perceptive realm as an asaññasatta.

One who practices sammāsamādhi instead of asaññisamādhi learns the difference between apperception (saññā) and thought (vitakka). It is apperception which differentiates, not thought.

It is also possible to develop vipassanā while abiding in jhāna. MN 111 describes this, as does the Abhidhammapiṭaka. Of course, if one is abiding in a non-perceptive attainment then there is no possibility of apperception or insight.

May I take it that none of these 3 statements of yours were intended to be a reference to Ajahn Brahm's description of the Jhanas? May I also take it that you are not saying that the Jhanas as described by Ajahn Brahm are asañña?

I just want to be sure what your position really is, in case this issue flares up again, like a flame that has not been unbound.

[Assaji]

Hi Sylvester,

Also , there is no support for the claim that one goes beyond the 5 senses only in the arupa states.

This is described, for example, in Potthapada sutta (DN 9):

‘‘Puna caparaṃ, poṭṭhapāda, bhikkhu sabbaso rūpasaññānaṃ samatikkamā paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā nānattasaññānaṃ amanasikārā ‘ananto ākāso’ti ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ upasampajja viharati. Tassa yā purimā rūpasaññā, sā nirujjhati. Ākāsānañcāyatanasukhumasaccasaññā tasmiṃ samaye hoti, ākāsānañcāyatanasukhumasaccasaññīyeva tasmiṃ samaye hoti. Evampi sikkhā ekā saññā uppajjati, sikkhā ekā saññā nirujjhati. Ayampi sikkhā’’ti bhagavā avoca.

"Again, by passing entirely beyond bodily sensations, by the disappearance of all sense of resistance and by non-attraction to the perception of diversity, seeing that space is infinite, he reaches and remains in the Sphere of Infinite Space. In this way some perceptions arise through training, and some pass away through training."

May I ask why rūpasaññāna above has been translated as "bodily sensations"? Who did this translation?

That's the translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi.

In your other Dhamma forum, you said this -

That's a quote of our friend Geoff Shatz, not mine.

If the "kāmā" meant only the kāmaguṇā, then we are going to end up with very bizzare situations where the kāmaguṇā, instead of giving pleasure, give only pain.

The Critical Pali Dictionary has done a very comprehensive survey and its entries on kāmā and kāmaguṇā distinguish them. The CPD follows the canonical definition of kāmaguṇā and what that leads to is the kāmaguṇā being a sub-set of the kāmā. The "kāmā" are defined simply as rūpā, saddā, gandhā, rasā and phoṭṭhabbā, all WITHOUT the adjectives.

That, IMHO, is the plain and simple meaning of kāmā in the vivicc'eva kāmehi formula of 1st Jhana.

Thank you, I will explore this matter.

[Assaji]

Hi Sylvester,

I take it from the above that, unlike Geoff, you are of the position that in order to vipassati, one must have Dhamma-vicaya?

Or are you opting for his interpretation that one can vipassati without Dhamma-vicaya?

These are just names.

I do know that insight in jhana works very well, and this is explained in MN 111 and other suttas.

Dhamma-vicaya is explained very well in Dvedhavitakka sutta - in practice one starts with discriminating coarse thoughts, and then moves to discriminating kinds of selective recognition (sanna) in jhana, as described in Potthapada sutta. It doesn't require vitakka and vicara.

[Nyana]

May I take it that none of these 3 statements of yours were intended to be a reference to Ajahn Brahm's description of the Jhanas?

They were a reference to the dangers of extreme absorption samādhis, especially if one isn't already at a very advanced stage of awakening with most defilements and underlying tendencies already extinguished (i.e. non-returner or arahant). The four jhānas as sammāsamādhi are not extreme absorptions devoid of comprehension.

May I also take it that you are not saying that the Jhanas as described by Ajahn Brahm are asañña?

In the context of jhāna he uses saññā, sati, and sampajañña in such a restrictive sense that there is no meaningful differentiation between them. Both saññā and sampajañña are functional aspects of comprehension. These dhammas occur and function in all four jhānas.

That's a quote of our friend Geoff Shatz, not mine.

A quote transferred from another very old internet forum post.

All the best,

Geoff

[Assaji]

Hi Sylvester,

If you look at how other suttas present raganusaya and how it anuseti sukha vedana, it becomes clear that raganusaya is the consequence of raga. Eg from SN 36.6 -

Having been touched by that painful feeling, he resists (and resents) it. Then in him who so resists (and resents) that painful feeling, an underlying tendency of resistance against that painful feeling comes to underlie (his mind). Under the impact of that painful feeling he then proceeds to enjoy sensual happiness. And why does he do so? An untaught worldling, O monks, does not know of any other escape from painful feelings except the enjoyment of sensual happiness. Then in him who enjoys sensual happiness, an underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind).

Tassāyeva kho pana dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno paṭighavā hoti. Tamenaṃ dukkhāya vedanāya paṭighavantaṃ, yo dukkhāya vedanāya paṭighānusayo, so anuseti. So dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno kāmasukhaṃ abhinandati. Taṃ kissa hetu? Na hi so, bhikkhave, pajānāti assutavā puthujjano aññatra kāmasukhā dukkhāya vedanāya nissaraṇaṃ, tassa kāmasukhañca abhinandato, yo sukhāya vedanāya rāgānusayo, so anuseti.

Here I would disagree. Anusaya is an underlying tendency that gets activated:

"Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain. If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one does not relish it, welcome it, or remain fastened to it, then one's passion-obsession doesn't get obsessed.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And thanks to the development if wisdom, these tendencies can be removed, especially on the basis of samadhi.

[Assaji]

Hi Sylvester,

No trick or trap. I merely assumed you may have followed the Jhana Debate thread. Anyway, my critique of Geoff's fallacy in misreading MN 43 is here-

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... ent#p74650" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well, I rely mostly on Potthapada Sutta description which I quoted above.

[Assaji]

Hi Morning Mist,

No body is saying that you should become attached to Jhana. This is just a misinterpretation. A person has to let go of attachment of one jhana to move to the next.

But for some reason, Brahmavamso writes that the attachment to jhana is impossible:

It is very odd, therefore, that some suggest that the practise of Jhana leads to attachment. How can, what is the practice of letting go, lead to attachment?

http://www.viet.net/anson/ebud/ebmed075.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are instruction for that and for developing insight which comes after.

But somehow Brahmavamso deems the work on developing wisdom unnecessary.

Comprehending and awareness / being conscious are two different things. Thoughts are allowed to settle, so mental analyzing or dhamma vitakka should be left behind.

" This ATTENTIVE stillness that is able to sustain awareness on one thing is called samadhi."

" Samadhi is the attentive stillness that is able to sustain attention on one thing"

The whole puprose of samma-samadhi is the development of wisdom:

"And what is the purpose of concentration? What is its reward?"

"Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hence samadhi without comprehension is worthless.

The Western translation of "ekaggatta" as "attention on one thing", or "one-pointedness", makes samadhi a rather nonsensical effort to narrow the mind.

Ekaggatta means something quite different:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5550" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With metta,

[Assaji]

Hi Morning Mist,

By the way nathan, you mentioned that you experienced four jhanas of Samma Samadhi and various formless states, were you able to recall many fold past lives and have knowledge of the passing away and reappearance of beings as the Buddha and his disciples did after they attained these states, or are the states that you called Samma samadhi and formless states different than the one they practice ?

Is this an irony?

It is well explained in the Pali texts that jhanas and samapattis by themselves don't lead to supernormal abilities, and out of the "three knowledges" of the Buddha, only one knowledge, the cessation of leaks (asava), is shared by his disciples, - they don't necessarily have knowledge of former lives and of the passing away and reappearance of beings.

[Sylvester]

Hi Sylvester,

No trick or trap. I merely assumed you may have followed the Jhana Debate thread. Anyway, my critique of Geoff's fallacy in misreading MN 43 is here-

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... ent#p74650" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well, I rely mostly on Potthapada Sutta description which I quoted above.

Hi Dmytro

Well, I guess Ven Bodhi's most current translation idiom for the phrase in question is "perception of form", rather than "bodily sensations".

[morning mist]

Hi Dmytro,

"Again, by passing entirely beyond bodily sensations, by the disappearance of all sense of resistance and by non-attraction to the perception of diversity, seeing that space is infinite, he reaches and remains in the Sphere of Infinite Space. In this way some perceptions arise through training, and some pass away through training."

May I ask why rūpasaññāna above has been translated as "bodily sensations"?

[/quote]

According to the structure of the realms and the jhanas we have:
1.
kama-loka : sense realm
kama sanna : sense perception, perception of senses


2.
rupa-loka: fine material world or Form realm
RUPA SANNA : Accordingly, this is Fine Material Perception or Form Perception or Perception of form
rupa jhana


3.
arupa loka: immaterial world
arupa jhana





In the Rupa jhana ( form jhana) perception of senses cease (kamasanna, sense perception, perception of sense) .

With Metta,

[morning mist]

Is this an irony?
It is well explained in the Pali texts that jhanas and samapattis by themselves don't lead to supernormal abilities,

According to the Maha-Saccaka Sutta, after the fourth jhana the Buddha directed his mind towards the three knowledges:

"I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.

"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two...five, ten...fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details.
"This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. " -(Maha-Saccaka Sutta)

The other two knowledges followed after, but it is too long to post the whole thing, please refer to Maha-Saccaka Sutta.

and out of the "three knowledges" of the Buddha, only one knowledge, the cessation of leaks (asava), is shared by his disciples, - they don't necessarily have knowledge of former lives and of the passing away and reappearance of beings.

Numerous people share this, for example Rahula, Kassapa, etc...

" Bhikkhus, when desired, I enjoy manifold supranormal powers, such as being one, becoming many, being many becoming one , appearing and vanishing. I go unimpeded through walls, through ramparts and mountains as if through space. I dive in and come out of earth as though in water. I walk on water as though on earth. Sitting crosslegged I fly through the air like a winged bird . With my hand I touch & stroke even the sun & moon, so mighty & powerful. I exercise influence with my body even as far as the Brahma worlds. Kassapa too when desired enjoys various spiritual powers.

" Bhikkhus, when desired, with the purified divine ear-element beyond human. I hear both kinds of sounds, heavenly and human, whether near or far. Kassapa too when desired, with the purified divine ear element beyond human, hears sounds heavenly and human far and near.


"Bhikkhus, when desired, I penetrate and understand the minds of other beings. I know the mind with greed, the mind without greed, the angry mind and the not angry mind. I know the deluded mind and the not deluded mind, the composed mind and the distracted mind. I know the exalted mind and the un exalted mind, the surpassable mind and an unsurpassable mind . I know the concentrated mind and the un-concentrated mind, the liberated mind and the unliberated mind. Kassapa too when desired penetrates and understands the minds of other beings. …

"Bhikkhus, when desired, I recollect the manifold previous births such as one birth, two, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty births. One hundred births, one thousand births, one hundred thousand births, innumerable aeons of cosmic-contraction, innumerable aeons of cosmic-expansion, innumerable aeons of cosmic-contraction and cosmic-expansion. There I was with this name, in this clan, with this disposition, supported thus, experiencing these pleasant and unpleasant feelings, enjoying such a lifespan. Disappearing from there I was born there with this name, in this clan, with this disposition, supported thus, experiencing these pleasant and unpleasant feelings, enjoying such a lifespan. Disappearing from there I was born here. Thus I recollect the manifold previous births with all details. Kassapa too when desired, recollects the manifold previous births such as one birth... Thus he recollects the manifold previous births with all details.


"Bhikkhus, when desired, with the purified divine eye beyond human I see beings disappearing and appearing beautiful and ugly, in heaven and hell, born according their kamma.'These good beings owing to misconduct in body, words and mind, reviling noble ones, owing to bearing wrong view and the actions based on wrong views, after death are born in misery, in states of deprivation, in decrease, in hell. These good beings owing to right conduct in body, words and mind, not reviling noble ones, owing to bearing right view and the actions based on right views, after death are born in increase, in fortunate states, in heaven. Thus I see beings disappearing and appearing beautiful and ugly, in heaven and hell, born according their kamma. Kassapa too when he desired, with the purified divine eye beyond human sees beings disappearing and appearing beautiful and ugly, in heaven and hell, born according their kamma...

" ....Kassapa too, by the ending of the asava, he enters and abides in the anasava liberation of mind, liberation of wisdom, realizing it for himself with direct knowledge (abhinna: special knowledge, supernormal power) in this very life."

- SN 16.9 Jhanabhinna Sutta

With metta,