the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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Aloka
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by Aloka »

tiltbillings wrote:
And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the flying pink uniocorn as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the flying pink uniocorn — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The flying pink uniocorn exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"
LOL!

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Alex123
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by Alex123 »

tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:

Can there be sentient existence without aggregates? If Tathagata is not found in/out of aggregates, then what difference is it from non-existence?
Yes, yes, well. What you are doing is trying to comprehend, pin down, the tathagata in terms of the khandhas, which the Buddha rejected.

Tilt,

From my first post in this thread I have not equated Tathagata with any khandha, or as existing outside of them. Please read it.

1.Arahant/Tathagata is not found inside or outside of 5 aggregates. SN 22.85-86
2.Self or what belongs to self is not found in truth or reality. MN22
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p121593" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
daverupa
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by daverupa »

Alex123 wrote:All I am saying is that Khandhas cease, and since Tathagata is not found within or outside of the Khandhas, no annihilation takes place.
Well, only dukkha ceases when the five aggregates subject to clinging become instead the five aggregates. The khandas only cease with parinibbana, not with nibbana.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:

Can there be sentient existence without aggregates? If Tathagata is not found in/out of aggregates, then what difference is it from non-existence?
Yes, yes, well. What you are doing is trying to comprehend, pin down, the tathagata in terms of the khandhas, which the Buddha rejected.

Tilt,

From my first post in this thread I have not equated Tathagata with any khandha, or as existing outside of them. Please read it.
I have read what you have written. It simply makes no sense, given that what you have written continually tries to comprehend the arahant/.tathagata in terms of the khandhas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Alex123
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by Alex123 »

tiltbillings wrote: I have read what you have written. It simply makes no sense, given that what you have written continually tries to comprehend the arahant/.tathagata in terms of the khandhas.
When I have said

"1.Arahant/Tathagata is not found inside or outside of 5 aggregates. SN 22.85-86", and you keep insisting that I believe that Tathagata/Arahant is found in terms of 5 Khandhas, I am sorry, If I can't be more clear.

Maybe I should add "1.Arahant/Tathagata is not found inside or outside of 5 aggregates and cannot be defined in terms of them. SN 22.85-86" .

That is what I've meant all along.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: I have read what you have written. It simply makes no sense, given that what you have written continually tries to comprehend the arahant/.tathagata in terms of the khandhas.
When I have said

"1.Arahant/Tathagata is not found inside or outside of 5 aggregates. SN 22.85-86", and you keep insisting that I believe that Tathagata/Arahant is found in terms of 5 Khandhas, I am sorry, If I can't be more clear.

Maybe I should add "1.Arahant/Tathagata is not found inside or outside of 5 aggregates and cannot be defined in terms of them. SN 22.85-86" .

That is what I've meant all along.
Then trying to tie the tathagata, alive or dead, to the khandha of consciousness has no meaning. Good to see you have changed your mind.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Alex123
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by Alex123 »

tiltbillings wrote:Then trying to tie the tathagata, alive or dead, to the khandha of consciousness has no meaning. Good to see you have changed your mind.
I never did change my mind. Please forgive me for not being more clear. I thought I was clear enough in my first post that Arahant is not tied to any aggregate, including consciousness.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Then trying to tie the tathagata, alive or dead, to the khandha of consciousness has no meaning. Good to see you have changed your mind.
I never did change my mind. Please forgive me for not being more clear. I thought I was clear enough in my first post that Arahant is not tied to any aggregate, including consciousness.
Then what was all this consciousness business you were going on about?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
rowyourboat
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by rowyourboat »

The 'Self' or the 'Thatagata' is a 'projection' of our minds on to what is seen, heard, sensed etc. That projection carries with it qualities (should I say none of the 'ultimate' truth) created by the mind of the onlooker. A sense awe, holiness, perhaps a sense of lineage etc all enter into that projection. However what the onlooker does not recognise is that even now, there is only khandas arising and passing away- it is all dukkha, not the sukha awe and wonder which was projected. We could almost say that 99.9% of what we considered as the Thatagata only exists in the onlooker's mind. Hence, 'the thatagata cannot be found even now'.

But what is it, that was the cause of the tatagatha projection/delusion? It was the aggregates (khandas) - a kind of Self-view. Then while the projection is a delusion, the khandas 'exist' (barely) in a causally arisen, transient and insubstantial manner- Ven Nanananda said:'the mirage (even though a mirage), exists (for it to be perceived)'. So perhaps to say that that the thatagata/arahanth IS the khandas is inaccurate. To talk of them AS IF they were the Khandas may be confusing to some. To purposefully misunderstand the above is just devious, with a good measure of 'nail hammering' thrown in for those who 'dare' to speak against the common view, rightly or wrongly. As long as we are unenlightened, the sutta said, we can have misconceptions about nibbana. So assuming your own view is correct, without approaching different views with an open mind, without trying to see the other's perspective, without approaching dhamma discussion as an opportunity to learn rather than debate endlessly is not helping Dhammawheel, nor the dhamma, nor the practioner. I think if a person doesn't understand after a reasonable number of attempts, then anything further is just a play of defilements (like clinging to view, conceit, cruelty and trying save face etc).

With metta

Matheesha

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

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tiltbillings
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by tiltbillings »

rowyourboat wrote:. . .
Honest to gawd, I have read the above through several times, and I am not all sure what you are saying or to whom it is directed. The bottom line is, in my opinion (with a nod to Seng T'san), there is no point in trying to tie the tathagata to a point of view, which pretty much seems to be the Buddha's point.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by kirk5a »

rowyourboat wrote:The 'Self' or the 'Thatagata' is a 'projection' of our minds on to what is seen, heard, sensed etc. That projection carries with it qualities (should I say none of the 'ultimate' truth) created by the mind of the onlooker. A sense awe, holiness, perhaps a sense of lineage etc all enter into that projection. However what the onlooker does not recognise is that even now, there is only khandas arising and passing away- it is all dukkha, not the sukha awe and wonder which was projected. We could almost say that 99.9% of what we considered as the Thatagata only exists in the onlooker's mind. Hence, 'the thatagata cannot be found even now'.

But what is it, that was the cause of the tatagatha projection/delusion?
So when the Buddha said "the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea" he was referring to a projection/delusion?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
rowyourboat
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi Kirk,

The difficulty of anyone who has seen and understood that there is only the five aggregates, through vipassana, is to communicate that insight (ie that way of 'seeing') to someone who hasn't. This ultimate reality/ conventional reality dichotomy is a hurdle in developing a Right view before the start of vipassana meditation. It is litterally the difference between seeing actors on a tv screen vs seeing the pixels of the screen which make up those 'actors', who don't ultimately exist.

So sometime to communicate the deep dhamma the Buddha has to use conventional terminology sometimes. Why should the Tathagata be hard to see? The conventional Tathagata is very easy to see. What is hard to see is the aggregates that we 'erroneously' label as the tathagatha. The pixels do exist, but they are deep and hard to see. Hope that makes some sense.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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kirk5a
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by kirk5a »

rowyourboat wrote:Hi Kirk,

The difficulty of anyone who has seen and understood that there is only the five aggregates, through vipassana, is to communicate that insight (ie that way of 'seeing') to someone who hasn't. This ultimate reality/ conventional reality dichotomy is a hurdle in developing a Right view before the start of vipassana meditation. It is litterally the difference between seeing actors on a tv screen vs seeing the pixels of the screen which make up those 'actors', who don't ultimately exist.

So sometime to communicate the deep dhamma the Buddha has to use conventional terminology sometimes. Why should the Tathagata be hard to see? The conventional Tathagata is very easy to see. What is hard to see is the aggregates that we 'erroneously' label as the tathagatha. The pixels do exist, but they are deep and hard to see. Hope that makes some sense.

With metta

Matheesha
Hi Matheesha

So then it is the aggregates which are "deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea"?

"Even so, Vaccha, any form... feeling... perception... fabrication... consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form... feeling... perception... fabrication... consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea."

It is the aggregates which the Tathagata "has abandoned" which are deep and boundless, like the sea?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Kenshou
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by Kenshou »

No, that would require reading that passage as if the Tathagata was to be taken as the aggregates, which we know is incorrect.

Rather it is the very fact that the/a Tathagata is hard to fathom that we are having this discussion in the first place, the thing being that all "fathomings" will be incorrect since beyond conventional convenience the designation "tathagata" or "arahant" is no longer applicable.
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kirk5a
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by kirk5a »

Kenshou wrote:No, that would require reading that passage as if the Tathagata was to be taken as the aggregates, which we know is incorrect.

Rather it is the very fact that the/a Tathagata is hard to fathom that we are having this discussion in the first place, the thing being that all "fathomings" will be incorrect since beyond conventional convenience the designation "tathagata" or "arahant" is no longer applicable.
Matheesha said "there is only the five aggregates" and that's what we're supposed to "see and understand through Vipassana"

If that's all there is, then that's all that could be said to be "deep."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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