Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
Lombardi4
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Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Lombardi4 »

If you are thirsty but there's nothing in the fridge except beer, and tap water is undrinkable, would alcohol be allowed in that case?
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Jhana4 »

The 5 precepts for lay people are suggestions for people who want to be liberated from suffering, the 5 precepts are not sins that are disallowed and punished.

The "suggestions" in the precepts is to avoid intoxicants, I don't believe specifically alcohol, as an aide in avoiding being part of events that will lead to unskillful states of mind.

Apply your own thinking, watch out for rationalizations
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Fede »

Yes, but remember, alcohol ultimately dehydrates you.

Did you known both Muslims and Jews are permitted to eat pork?
if the circumstances dictate that they are in need of sustenance, and there is no other means of feeding themselves, then without other options, eating pork is acceptable.

Same here.
but as Jhana points out, alcohol is not specifically forbidden.

Do what is wise for you in that moment, and be mindful in other cases.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by mikenz66 »

Jhana4 wrote:The 5 precepts for lay people are suggestions for people who want to be liberated from suffering, the 5 precepts are not sins that are disallowed and punished.

The "suggestions" in the precepts is to avoid intoxicants, I don't believe specifically alcohol, as an aide in avoiding being part of events that will lead to unskillful states of mind.

Apply your own thinking, watch out for rationalizations
:goodpost:

That cuts though the idea I see in some interminable threads that the precepts are some sort of legal system that should be prodded and poked by clever lawyers...

:anjali:
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

I have to ask, "Why would a Buddhist have beer in the fridge at all?" At least, there should be some ice in the fridge, shouldn't there? You could chip that off, and then boil and filter it.
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Lombardi4
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Lombardi4 »

Thank you all, and thank you Bhante. :namaste:

But when a Buddhist lives with non-Buddhists, it is possible to have beer in the fridge.
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Jhana4 »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:I have to ask, "Why would a Buddhist have beer in the fridge at all?"
That sounds like a great lead in to a good joke, now we just have to come up with the punch line.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Jhana4 »

mikenz66 wrote: That cuts though the idea I see in some interminable threads that the precepts are some sort of legal system that should be prodded and poked by clever lawyers...
I've noticed that too, both in myself and others. I think that way of thinking is the result of growing up in a culture dominated by an Abrahamic religion ( Christianity, Islam and Judiasm ). When people live under the threat of punishment from an authority figure they only learn to respect the letter of the "law", not the spirit and reason behind it.

The 5 precepts are not laws. The 5 precepts are tips for your own benefit.

It is like going to a nutritionist to learn how to slim down. You aren't doing anything morally wrong by having a slice of cake. Nobody is going to punish you. You are just wasting the money you spent for the advice and thwarting your own desires in reaching your goals.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Nibbida
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Nibbida »

This seems like an unlikely scenario, but even if it were so, the alcoholic beverage could be heated up. Alcohol has a lower boiling point than water so it will evaporate quicker leaving water behind.
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

The precept as worded, relates to the intoxicants that lead to mindlessness?

Does the one beer in the fridge lead to mindlessness? That will be for the individual to decide.

Some might say that opens up a "slippery slope", and I would agree that no alcohol is better than a little alcohol, vis-a-vis mindfulness, but to what extent does one beer lead to mindlessness?
Fede wrote:Yes, but remember, alcohol ultimately dehydrates you.
Two men in the desert... one living off beer, one living off nothing. Who dies from dehydration quicker?

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Ben »

Stefan wrote:If you are thirsty but there's nothing in the fridge except beer, and tap water is undrinkable, would alcohol be allowed in that case?
Boil your tap water and have a nice cup of tea.
In the situation you describe above, I would rather go thirsty than drink the beer. No one dies from being a little-bit thirsty. For many people in the west, they conflate 'thirst' and 'hunger' with craving for sensual pleasure of drinking and eating.
If the water was truly undrinkable and boiling it would not make it drinkable, then I would go out and buy some bottled water.
Developing perfect sila is critically important, Stefan, if you want to make any progress on the path.
kind regards

Ben
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by chownah »

Jhana4 wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:I have to ask, "Why would a Buddhist have beer in the fridge at all?"
That sounds like a great lead in to a good joke, now we just have to come up with the punch line.
Because it's too warm if they keep it in the oven!!!!!
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

retrofuturist wrote:The precept as worded, relates to the intoxicants that lead to mindlessness?

Does the one beer in the fridge lead to mindlessness? That will be for the individual to decide.
The precept as worded is an undertaking to abstain from intoxicants that lead to heedlessness, not an undertaking to abstain from becoming intoxicated.
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings bhante,
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:The precept as worded is an undertaking to abstain from intoxicants that lead to heedlessness, not an undertaking to abstain from becoming intoxicated.
I agree, but they only lead to intoxication in certain volumes... hence presumably why medicinal uses of alcohol in accordance with the Vinaya are permissible for bhikkhus. From that I think it's clear it's not a case of absolutes.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Fede »

retrofuturist wrote:
Fede wrote:Yes, but remember, alcohol ultimately dehydrates you.
Two men in the desert... one living off beer, one living off nothing. Who dies from dehydration quicker?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Picky picky....
What man in the desert is dragging a fridge around with him? :tongue: :jumping:
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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