Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Kim OHara
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Kim OHara »

Fede wrote: Picky picky....
What man in the desert is dragging a fridge around with him? :tongue: :jumping:
It's not a fridge, it's an Esky.*
And the man, of course, is an Aussie.
:juggling:
Kim


* Esky:
polaroid-esky.png
polaroid-esky.png (78.85 KiB) Viewed 3561 times
meindzai
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by meindzai »

Jhana4 wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:I have to ask, "Why would a Buddhist have beer in the fridge at all?"
That sounds like a great lead in to a good joke, now we just have to come up with the punch line.
Because his water filter has no attachments?

eh.

-M
meindzai
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by meindzai »

Curious, does anybody here drink non-alcoholic beer? I stopped drinking at 22, some time before becoming a Buddhist. A few years afterwards after an 18 mile training run, I picked up a pizza for myself and thought how much a beer would go great with it (carbs I guess), so I got some O'douls. Having not had real beer for so long I couldn't tell the difference, other than the not-being-intoxicated part. It has some super-low alcohol content (.4%)

I get it every once and awhile with a meal, if it's available. I also get some strange looks. Sometimes the bottle is dusty and unrefrigerated. But it just goes good with certain meals.

-M
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Ben
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Ben »

A few weeks ago, I was invited to a colleague's birthday party. I caught up with the husband of my wife's best friend and riding partner, and he offered me a 'no-alcohol' beer. It was nice, and the first time I had tasted a beer in many years. First thing I noticed was how heavy it was (boutique brewed in the bottle type). After the first couple of sips, I realized I didn't miss it. And then while I was drinking it I read the label and noticed that it did contain alcohol (0.5 percent). I was pretty disappointed with my friend who knew I didn't drink any alcohol, at all and who, I thought wasn't so thoughtless. I was more disappointed with myself for not checking the label first.
I prefer a coke zero over a beer, even a 'no-alcohol' beer, any day.
-B
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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phil
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by phil »

Stefan wrote:If you are thirsty but there's nothing in the fridge except beer, and tap water is undrinkable, would alcohol be allowed in that case?
Stefan, that seems like a bit of a silly question. The Buddha didn't teach the precepts to drive you to suicide by following them. The better question is "it is allowable to drink alchol in certain occasions, carefully, just a little, with mindfulness?" and the answer yes, it's allowable, if you consider allowable to be what what harmful behaviour you will allow greed, ignorance, laziness and other mental factors to drive you to do.

If people don't care enough about Dhamma to be able to cut alcohol out of their lives without looking back, it suggest there isn't much true commitment. Sorry if that sounds "puritanical." And not saying that to you, Stefan, but to all the precept fudgers out there, they are a multitude.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
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manjughosamani
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by manjughosamani »

Hello,
retrofuturist wrote:I agree, but they only lead to intoxication in certain volumes... hence presumably why medicinal uses of alcohol in accordance with the Vinaya are permissible for bhikkhus. From that I think it's clear it's not a case of absolutes.
My understanding is that the medicinal exceptions for alcohol use in the vinaya are specific to a certain class of diseases rooted in disturbed vāyus (winds). According to this type of proto-āyurvedic medical theory, vāyu has certain properties that alcohol can serve as an antidote to. There was no distillation of alcohol in the Buddha's time and the medicinal alcohols would have been about 2% alcohol (as they still are in many traditional Indian medicinal alcohols).

As an aside, it would be interesting to find out what types of vinayic medicines are in use now, or if bhikkhus are primarilly seeing allopathic physcicians for their health care needs.

Wishing you all the best.
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Atha nibbindati dukkhe esa maggo visuddhiyā.
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Nibbida
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Nibbida »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings bhante,
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:The precept as worded is an undertaking to abstain from intoxicants that lead to heedlessness, not an undertaking to abstain from becoming intoxicated.
I agree, but they only lead to intoxication in certain volumes... hence presumably why medicinal uses of alcohol in accordance with the Vinaya are permissible for bhikkhus. From that I think it's clear it's not a case of absolutes.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Ay, but therein lies the rub. The effects of alcohol on the brain are not all-or-nothing. One may only notice intoxication after a certain threshold is reached, but the effects of alcohol on the nervous system (& rest of the body) are graded. So even a little alcohol could produce effects on decision-making (i.e. heedfulness) emotions, and behavior. There's no clear line where it either has/doesn't have an effect.

I'm not sure that the alcohol in the non-alcoholic beer will have any effect because it may be metabolized by the liver as quickly as it's being consumed. One would have to drink an awful lot of it really fast to get any effect. But on the other hand, let's not forget classical conditioning. The brain rapidly creates associations between the taste of alcoholic beverages and the intoxicating effects on levels that we may not even be aware of. So even drinking a beverage completely devoid of alcohol that tastes like an alcoholic beverage can have effects.

Here's an interesting example. A study was done where people came into a lab on different days where they drank one of two beverages, either beverage A or B on any given day. One, say A, had alcohol while the other didn't. The flavors were heavily manipulated to disguise the taste of alcohol to the point where subjects could not tell the difference. However, when rating their feelings of intoxication (e.g. relaxed, etc.), people did rate more of an effect of beverage A. After drinking each one a few times on different days, people came in and sat at a table where glasses labeled A and B were placed before them. Their eyes were monitored and they spent more time looking at A than B. So the conditioned associations happened very rapidly and subtly (but measurably) between the label and the intoxication, and those associations caused a stronger draw on one's attention.

This can get to the point of splitting hairs. But my point is just to point out how subtle and insidious the effects of alcohol can be.

Besides, it's not a case of absolutes. It's a case of Absolut (scroll down on the picture):
absolut-vodka-absolut-nirvana-small-39593.jpg
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

It seems to me, based upon my own experience, that a desire to consume alcoholic beverages, or engage in other mood altering substances reveals an attachment and clinging. Since we already know the result of clinging, attachment, and desire, the point of continuing the practice would be what?: Exchange of short term pleasure for long term dukkha?
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Vardali
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Vardali »

I really wonder how much Christian puritanism is involved in interpreting this precept?
I mean do our Asian posters here from a Buddhist cultural background interprete it with the same level of strictness or lenience as Western converts?
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

retrofuturist wrote:I agree, but they only lead to intoxication in certain volumes... hence presumably why medicinal uses of alcohol in accordance with the Vinaya are permissible for bhikkhus. From that I think it's clear it's not a case of absolutes.
Medicines that contain alcohol are allowable, under strict conditions.
he Mahāvagga (VI.14.1) allows this medicine for use only as long as the taste, color, and smell of the alcohol are not perceptible.
It would be well to read the whole Vinaya Rule
Effort. The Vibhaṅga defines drinking as taking even as little as the tip of a blade of grass. Thus taking a small glass of wine, even though it might not be enough to make one drunk, would be more than enough to fulfill this factor.
If he does not know that it is alcohol, it is still an offence.

The interpretation of the wording of the precepts is clear enough. The application of it varies widely both in Asia and in the West. All devout Buddhists are Teetotallers. Not all Buddhists are devout. Puritanical is a nasty word to use — it smacks of self-righteousness. The precepts are for one's own benefit, not for imposing on others. How strictly anyone wants to observe them is their own free choice. If you have a beer even if you're dying of thirst, then you broke the precept — that should be clear enough.

If we apply the same flexibility to the other four precepts where will the lines be drawn?
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Ben
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Ben »

Greetings Bhante,
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:If he does not know that it is alcohol, it is still an offence.
I would appreciate clarification on this point as it seems to be at odds with my own understanding. If there is no intention to break the sila, then where is the wrong-doing? Certainly if one encourages others to drink or speaks in praise of drinking, then I can see the wrong doing. But if one is oblivious to the fact that whatever he or she is drinking contains alcohol, and only discovers it later, then where is the wrong doing in that?
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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retrofuturist
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,

There's probably pragmatic reasons for it. Imagine this...

"Oh dear, I had no idea this drink had alcohol in it... (wink, wink)... those naughty, naughty laypeople giving me inadmissable offerings (wink, wink, guffaw, hic)"

If it's a Vinaya offence regardless, it cuts out the wink winks and encourages monks to be vigilant about such offerings.

As an aside, the impact of lack of sleep on mindfulness (think about road safety advertising, for example) is often said to exceed that of a small amount of alcohol. I'm sure you've been less mindful before at 2am than after a 0.5% beer during the day.... and mindfulness is whole the point, yes?

I would see sila as a means to an end, not an end in itself.

Mettam
Retro. :)
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Ben wrote:I would appreciate clarification on this point as it seems to be at odds with my own understanding. If there is no intention to break the sila, then where is the wrong-doing?
What if a man meets a woman, who says she's unattached, and sleeps with her, but she is married, where is the wrong-doing? Or, if one receives stolen goods not knowing that they're not stolen. Or if a monk eats after midday, not knowing what time it is.

Isn't there a duty of care to check about such things? Either way, if one doesn't check, and others see what one has done, they will blame us anyway. So take care.
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daverupa
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by daverupa »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Either way, if one doesn't check, and others see what one has done, they will blame us anyway. So take care.
A lot of Buddhist morality seems tied to this sort of approach, especially Vinaya origin stories which have upset laypeople as the source of a rule. Comportment is very important if donated necessities are one's livelihood - and, for a layperson who may or may not be seen as a representative of the Sangha, comportment will matter to greater or lesser degrees depending on whether or not the Dhamma will be disparaged via a perceived moral laxity.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Ben
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Ben »

Thank you Venerable and Paul

Paul I'm talking about a situation where a person is vigilant but doesn't hav the intention to break sila. A similar situation would be driving in the car and unbeknownst to the driver kills small insects. As I said earlier, my understanding is that intention to break the sila is a key element. Unfortunately I don't hav the time to track down the textual source which ennumerates how sila is broken. Respectfully I disagree with your post and I suggest that if one intends to drink alcohol and if one drinks a drop, then the precept is broken. You are right that the precepts are not an end in themselves but they are an important foundation for the development of sammasamadhi and panna. How one attends to sila conditions the development of samadhi and panna.

Dear Bhante,
What if a man meets a woman, who says she's unattached, and sleeps with her, but she is married, where is the wrong-doing?
Breach of the third precept, in my humble opinion, regardless of whether she is married or not. But if he knew that the woman was married then it is weightier.
Or, if one receives stolen goods not knowing that they're not stolen.
Certainly guilty of taking that which is not freely given if the receiver knew the goods were stolen. If however, he did not know, I don't see how the precept is broken.
Or if a monk eats after midday, not knowing what time it is.
Then surely he is only guilty of not knowing what time it is. Incidentally, what do monks do at mealtimes when they are in-flight and crossing multiple time-zones?
Isn't there a duty of care to check about such things? Either way, if one doesn't check, and others see what one has done, they will blame us anyway.
Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. I'm not talking of a situation of a lazy person or someone who takes advantage of a situation where alcohol could be served by someone who doesn't know one has taken the fifth precept. Perhaps the blame in many situations is the result of the defilements in the other person's mind rather than anything to do with our one's own behaviour. I thought the consideration of blame is when it arises in the mind of the 'wise'.

It seems to me that if one breaks sila when the intention was not present then it appears, and perhaps I am very wrong, to conform to the teachings of jainism rather than buddhism. And so, the crux of my enquiry is really in relation to the role of intention in sila.
So take care
Thank you. I do to the very best of my ability. And I wish you well too.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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