Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:59 am

tiltbillings wrote:Then trying to tie the tathagata, alive or dead, to the khandha of consciousness has no meaning. Good to see you have changed your mind.


I never did change my mind. Please forgive me for not being more clear. I thought I was clear enough in my first post that Arahant is not tied to any aggregate, including consciousness.
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:08 am

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Then trying to tie the tathagata, alive or dead, to the khandha of consciousness has no meaning. Good to see you have changed your mind.


I never did change my mind. Please forgive me for not being more clear. I thought I was clear enough in my first post that Arahant is not tied to any aggregate, including consciousness.
Then what was all this consciousness business you were going on about?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:48 am

The 'Self' or the 'Thatagata' is a 'projection' of our minds on to what is seen, heard, sensed etc. That projection carries with it qualities (should I say none of the 'ultimate' truth) created by the mind of the onlooker. A sense awe, holiness, perhaps a sense of lineage etc all enter into that projection. However what the onlooker does not recognise is that even now, there is only khandas arising and passing away- it is all dukkha, not the sukha awe and wonder which was projected. We could almost say that 99.9% of what we considered as the Thatagata only exists in the onlooker's mind. Hence, 'the thatagata cannot be found even now'.

But what is it, that was the cause of the tatagatha projection/delusion? It was the aggregates (khandas) - a kind of Self-view. Then while the projection is a delusion, the khandas 'exist' (barely) in a causally arisen, transient and insubstantial manner- Ven Nanananda said:'the mirage (even though a mirage), exists (for it to be perceived)'. So perhaps to say that that the thatagata/arahanth IS the khandas is inaccurate. To talk of them AS IF they were the Khandas may be confusing to some. To purposefully misunderstand the above is just devious, with a good measure of 'nail hammering' thrown in for those who 'dare' to speak against the common view, rightly or wrongly. As long as we are unenlightened, the sutta said, we can have misconceptions about nibbana. So assuming your own view is correct, without approaching different views with an open mind, without trying to see the other's perspective, without approaching dhamma discussion as an opportunity to learn rather than debate endlessly is not helping Dhammawheel, nor the dhamma, nor the practioner. I think if a person doesn't understand after a reasonable number of attempts, then anything further is just a play of defilements (like clinging to view, conceit, cruelty and trying save face etc).

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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:23 am

rowyourboat wrote:. . .
Honest to gawd, I have read the above through several times, and I am not all sure what you are saying or to whom it is directed. The bottom line is, in my opinion (with a nod to Seng T'san), there is no point in trying to tie the tathagata to a point of view, which pretty much seems to be the Buddha's point.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby kirk5a » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:34 pm

rowyourboat wrote:The 'Self' or the 'Thatagata' is a 'projection' of our minds on to what is seen, heard, sensed etc. That projection carries with it qualities (should I say none of the 'ultimate' truth) created by the mind of the onlooker. A sense awe, holiness, perhaps a sense of lineage etc all enter into that projection. However what the onlooker does not recognise is that even now, there is only khandas arising and passing away- it is all dukkha, not the sukha awe and wonder which was projected. We could almost say that 99.9% of what we considered as the Thatagata only exists in the onlooker's mind. Hence, 'the thatagata cannot be found even now'.

But what is it, that was the cause of the tatagatha projection/delusion?

So when the Buddha said "the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea" he was referring to a projection/delusion?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:16 pm

Hi Kirk,

The difficulty of anyone who has seen and understood that there is only the five aggregates, through vipassana, is to communicate that insight (ie that way of 'seeing') to someone who hasn't. This ultimate reality/ conventional reality dichotomy is a hurdle in developing a Right view before the start of vipassana meditation. It is litterally the difference between seeing actors on a tv screen vs seeing the pixels of the screen which make up those 'actors', who don't ultimately exist.

So sometime to communicate the deep dhamma the Buddha has to use conventional terminology sometimes. Why should the Tathagata be hard to see? The conventional Tathagata is very easy to see. What is hard to see is the aggregates that we 'erroneously' label as the tathagatha. The pixels do exist, but they are deep and hard to see. Hope that makes some sense.

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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby kirk5a » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:53 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Hi Kirk,

The difficulty of anyone who has seen and understood that there is only the five aggregates, through vipassana, is to communicate that insight (ie that way of 'seeing') to someone who hasn't. This ultimate reality/ conventional reality dichotomy is a hurdle in developing a Right view before the start of vipassana meditation. It is litterally the difference between seeing actors on a tv screen vs seeing the pixels of the screen which make up those 'actors', who don't ultimately exist.

So sometime to communicate the deep dhamma the Buddha has to use conventional terminology sometimes. Why should the Tathagata be hard to see? The conventional Tathagata is very easy to see. What is hard to see is the aggregates that we 'erroneously' label as the tathagatha. The pixels do exist, but they are deep and hard to see. Hope that makes some sense.

With metta

Matheesha

Hi Matheesha

So then it is the aggregates which are "deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea"?

"Even so, Vaccha, any form... feeling... perception... fabrication... consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form... feeling... perception... fabrication... consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea."

It is the aggregates which the Tathagata "has abandoned" which are deep and boundless, like the sea?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Kenshou » Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:22 pm

No, that would require reading that passage as if the Tathagata was to be taken as the aggregates, which we know is incorrect.

Rather it is the very fact that the/a Tathagata is hard to fathom that we are having this discussion in the first place, the thing being that all "fathomings" will be incorrect since beyond conventional convenience the designation "tathagata" or "arahant" is no longer applicable.
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby kirk5a » Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:54 pm

Kenshou wrote:No, that would require reading that passage as if the Tathagata was to be taken as the aggregates, which we know is incorrect.

Rather it is the very fact that the/a Tathagata is hard to fathom that we are having this discussion in the first place, the thing being that all "fathomings" will be incorrect since beyond conventional convenience the designation "tathagata" or "arahant" is no longer applicable.

Matheesha said "there is only the five aggregates" and that's what we're supposed to "see and understand through Vipassana"

If that's all there is, then that's all that could be said to be "deep."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby darvki » Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:47 am

Kenshou wrote:all "fathomings" will be incorrect since beyond conventional convenience the designation "tathagata" or "arahant" is no longer applicable.


So, before liberation, such designations as "puthujjana" are applicable beyond conventional convenience?
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Kenshou » Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:02 am

kirk5a wrote:If that's all there is, then that's all that could be said to be "deep."

If the Tathagata is not found in any of the aggregates, then how can we take the statement "The tathagata is deep, hard to fathom..." as referring to the aggregates?

I think that, it's merely referring to the difficulty of conceptually working this issue out in words.

darvki wrote:So, before liberation, such designations as "puthujjana" are applicable beyond conventional convenience?

Gasp! No. I'm not implying there is a self which gets destroyed. I think I had something along the lines of this sutta in mind: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up[1] there, tied up[2] there, one is said to be 'a being.'[3]

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby darvki » Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:21 am

Kenshou wrote:Gasp! No. I'm not implying there is a self which gets destroyed.


Okay. Didn't think so, just wanted to check, as well as bring up the idea that all this unfathomability talk might also be applicable to all sentient beings.
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:07 am

"Even so, Vaccha, any form... feeling... perception... fabrication... consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form... feeling... perception... fabrication... consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea."


Putajjanas would think of one of the aggregates (his body, his teachings etc) when they think of the tathagatha - because they haven't seen that for the Tathagata all these aggregates have been (in his meditation and practice) been completely wipes clean of attachment (this is MY body), and delusion (this aggregate is Me). The Tathagata would not see a difference (as far as I understand) between his body and that of the rock he is sitting on as far as sense of self goes. His sense of self is wiped out, with wisdom. Furthermore he is 'destroyed the root' in terms of avijja/lobha. They have lost their 'life' -their ability to cause a strong impact on the mind- 'made like a palmyra stump', no more craving for them, so no more profileration of the aggregates - 'deprived the condition for development', and with the absence of avijja/lobha, even though they are arising now due to past avijja/lobha, there will be no rebirth-'not destined for future arising'. I would add that the Tathagata has seen the non-arising of the aggregates as well, when the fetters are broken, but that might be too controversial, but would add to intensify the meaning of the above verse. So we have a situation where someone has seen the utter destruction of everything that we would normally use to denote a 'person', yet something still exists. The Tathagata is truly untraceable, hard to understand. It can only be understood through direct experience, but perhaps never adequately conceptualised, as Kirk suggested. I guess this is applicable to a lot of meditative experiences, like jhana etc.

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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby pulga » Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:35 pm

Hello rowyourboat,

rowyourboat wrote: Ven Nanananda said:'the mirage (even though a mirage), exists (for it to be perceived)'.


I've been thinking lately about the Ven. Ñanananda's ideas regarding námarúpa, and would like to know from where this quote came. Is it from Magic of the Mind , Nibbana Sermons, or is it from some other of his writings?

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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby dharmaamrita » Sun May 01, 2011 8:02 am

i think, this the most 'eye-opening' topics of the Buddha. The question of annata(anatma), No-self. The question of annhilation arises due to our clinging of the concept of self. But to a Tathagata it does not apply because the arahant only sees cause and effect in this sea of impermanence. There is no self. Our form gets broken down and converted to something else. The hydrogen, carbon atoms that make your body was once the atoms of maybe a star or a plant. The feelings are there dependent on something. So are perceptions, sankharas and vinnana(vijnana or consciousness). This is an aggregate of these 5 things. It is a changing impermanent aggregate. The arahant aware of this sees no self, thus the concept of annhilation does not apply. Metta...and may Sati be tirelessly awake
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby rowyourboat » Sun May 01, 2011 8:13 am

pulga wrote:Hello rowyourboat,

rowyourboat wrote: Ven Nanananda said:'the mirage (even though a mirage), exists (for it to be perceived)'.


I've been thinking lately about the Ven. Ñanananda's ideas regarding námarúpa, and would like to know from where this quote came. Is it from Magic of the Mind , Nibbana Sermons, or is it from some other of his writings?

Thanks,
pulga


Hi Pulga

Sorry for the delay- I hope you are still around- yes, it is from one of the nibbana sermons- can't pin point which one because there are so many- possibly one of the earlier sermons.

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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby rowyourboat » Sun May 01, 2011 8:15 am

dharmaamrita wrote:i think, this the most 'eye-opening' topics of the Buddha. The question of annata(anatma), No-self. The question of annhilation arises due to our clinging of the concept of self. But to a Tathagata it does not apply because the arahant only sees cause and effect in this sea of impermanence. There is no self. Our form gets broken down and converted to something else. The hydrogen, carbon atoms that make your body was once the atoms of maybe a star or a plant. The feelings are there dependent on something. So are perceptions, sankharas and vinnana(vijnana or consciousness). This is an aggregate of these 5 things. It is a changing impermanent aggregate. The arahant aware of this sees no self, thus the concept of annhilation does not apply. Metta...and may Sati be tirelessly awake


I agree, completely!
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon May 02, 2011 12:15 am

Yep.

:goodpost:

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Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Johnny Teoh » Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:28 pm

Nibbana is just simply a supramundance state that cant be explained by using mundance term. In nibbana, nothing is eternalised nor annihilated except sense passion, annihilated. :pig: :thinking:
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:35 pm

Parinibbāna is annihilation... of all suffering and stress.


[Sariputta] how would you answer if you are thus asked: A monk, a worthy one, with no more mental effluents: what is he on the break-up of the body, after death?"
[Yamaka] "Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is stressful. That which is stressful has ceased and gone to its end."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Nibbāna is cessation of becoming. bhavanirodho nibbāna. - AN10.7
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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