Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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retrofuturist
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,
Ben wrote:Respectfully I disagree with your post and I suggest that if one intends to drink alcohol and if one drinks a drop, then the precept is broken.
Oh, I don't disagree with that - certainly the precept is broken, no arguments there... but the precepts (as an embodiment of sila) are, as we both agree, a means to an end, not an end in themselves.

Again, take your 0.5% beer... if that consumed on a day where you did several hours meditation, would that be a better day (in terms of benefit/outcome) than a day with zero alcohol content where you indulged mindlessly in sense pleasures, but without breaking sila/precepts.

My point is that the issue of "unbeknownst wrongdoing" for a lay-person is neither here nor there. What matters is the benefit/outcome. And what is the outcome? In your case, a small amount of alcohol was consumed which had a correspondingly small detrimental impact on mindfulness for a short period of time. That is what matters, because that's what happened, regardless of intention, in natural law and experience. Precept and sila is a construct to support good natural outcomes, but it is just that... a construct, an abstraction, a framework - it does not exist in natural law and experience. Spoken another way, where does a precept or sila fit in relation to the five aggregates of experience? How does a precept or sila fit in relation to the six senses?

I suspect you'll find more rewarding answers by delving in and analysing your question from the framework of the five aggregates, than by judging yourself against some psuedo-Vinaya criteria.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Ben
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Ben »

Hi Retro
Thanks for that reply. I'm in the middle of a huge cooking session so I'll be brief...
To be clear, I am not trying to judge myself. Certainly I am using an example of my recent past experience but I'm merely seeking clarification on what Venerable said and that has to do with the role of intention in sila. And I am seeking clarification so as to assess and correct my own understanding.

As for exploring the nexus between my own query and the five aggregates - that is an interesting avenue of investigation but not one I can attend to immediately. Perhaps later.
Anyway, garlic and ginger are calling me away...
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Mawkish1983
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Mawkish1983 »

Ben wrote:Anyway, garlic and ginger are calling me away...
...and soy sauce and a tiny bit of lemon? Sounds tasty... mmmmmmmmmmmmmm intoxicating
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Ben
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Ben »

Hi Mawk,
Mawkish1983 wrote:
Ben wrote:Anyway, garlic and ginger are calling me away...
...and soy sauce and a tiny bit of lemon? Sounds tasty... mmmmmmmmmmmmmm intoxicating
Yesterday's cooking session called for freshly roasted and ground cumin and chilli which was mixed with garlic and ginger as a marinade paste for chicken which was sealed in canola and butter, water and fruit chutney added and simmered with oregano and parsley. Precooked for 90 people who will cook their own cous cous and reheat their chicken and chutney mix.
Anyway, it appears my enquiry regarding the role of intention in breaking sila still has not been picked up by anyone.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Mawkish1983
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Mawkish1983 »

Ben wrote:Anyway, it appears my enquiry regarding the role of intention in breaking sila still has not been picked up by anyone.
Sorry Ben, I'm really not qualified to answer.

I found retro's answer about fatigue being more damaging to mindfulness than a little alcohol really intruiging, which is why I tried [rather clumsily] to link the idea of intoxication to other non-alcoholic elements, such as food.

Anyway, I suppose the question was about alcohol so I'm :offtopic:

Sorry
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ground
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by ground »

Stefan wrote:If you are thirsty but there's nothing in the fridge except beer, and tap water is undrinkable, would alcohol be allowed in that case?
I guess the meaning of "thirsty" is relative. There might be the possibility to discover that "thirsty" actually is not that "thirsty" as it appeared when not observing mindfully and that there actually is occasion to wait for alternative drinks becoming available


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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by meindzai »

Ben wrote: Anyway, it appears my enquiry regarding the role of intention in breaking sila still has not been picked up by anyone.
kind regards

Ben
Ben,

My impression is that the expectations of Sila for monks is simply so much higher than those set out in the precepts for laypeople. They call for a degree of vigilance, attention, and mindfulness that is exceedingly difficult to maintain perfectly, especially considering all the rules that are given.

I won't say where or who, but I once stayed at a monastery where I met a monk that I got along with very well, but he was a tad on the "spacey" side. He actually reminded me of myself, if I had become a monk. I saw him reprimanded a few times for minor offenses, none of which seemed a matter of "intent" as much as a lack of carefulness of mindfulness. It got me thinking a lot about what the expectations are for a monastic, and what it means to be expected to have such a high degree of vigilance.

-M
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by meindzai »

Here's something in Thanissaro Bhikkhu's "The Buddhist Monastic Code" that addresses "intention." Emphasis mine.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... .ch01.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Offenses. In analyzing offenses for the purpose of determining penalties, the Vibhaṅga divides an action into five factors: the effort, the perception under which it is made, the intention motivating it, the object at which it is aimed, and the result. In some of the rules, all five factors play a role in determining what is and is not a full offense. In others, only two, three, or four play a role. For example, under the pārājika rule forbidding murder, all five factors have to be present for a full offense: The object has to be a human being, the bhikkhu has to perceive him/her as a living being, he has to have murderous intent, he has to make an effort for the person to die, and the person has to die.

If any of these factors is missing, the penalty changes. For instance, object: If the bhikkhu kills a dog, the penalty is a pācittiya. Perception: If he cremates a friend, thinking that the friend is dead, then even if the friend is actually alive but severely comatose, the bhikkhu incurs no penalty. Intention: If he accidentally drops a rock on a person standing below him, he incurs no penalty even if the person dies. Effort: If he sees a person fall into the river but makes no effort to save the person, he incurs no penalty even if the person drowns. Result: If he tries to kill a person, but only succeeds in injuring him, he incurs a thullaccaya.

In some rules, though, the factors of intention, perception, and result do not make any difference in determining offenses. For example, if a bhikkhu is sleeping alone in a room and a woman comes in and lies down in the room with him, he incurs the pācittiya for lying down in the same lodging as a woman even though his intention was to lie down alone and he was unaware of her presence. A bhikkhu who drinks a glass of wine, thinking it to be grape juice, incurs the pācittiya for taking an intoxicant all the same. A bhikkhu who tries to frighten another bhikkhu incurs a pācittiya regardless of whether the other bhikkhu is actually frightened.

Of these factors, intention is the most variable. Under some rules, it deals simply with the issue of whether the bhikkhu's action was fully deliberate. In others, it deals with the impulse, the mental state, e.g., anger or lust, impelling his action. In others, it deals with the immediate aim of this action; in others, with the underlying motive that the immediate aim is intended to serve. In still others, it deals with combinations of any of these four.

Another variation is that in rules where a bhikkhu may be put into a passive role in committing an act that would fulfill the factor of effort, the factor of intention is changed to consent: mental acquiescence to the act combined with a physical or verbal expression of that acquiescence. Under some rules, such as the rule against sexual intercourse, simply letting the act happen counts as physical acquiescence even if one lies perfectly still, and the question of whether one incurs a penalty depends entirely on the state of one's mind. Under other rules, though — such as the rule against lustful contact with a woman, which includes cases where the woman is the agent making the contact — simply lying still is not enough to count as a physical sign of acquiescence, and even if one consents mentally, say, to a woman's fondling, one would incur a penalty only if one says something or responds with a physical movement to her action.

Because of the many variations possible in the factor of intention, it might be argued that it should be consistently divided into such sub-factors as presence or absence of deliberation, impulse, immediate aim, and motive. However, the Vibhaṅga itself is not consistent in distinguishing among these three. Under Pr 3 and Sg 1, for instance, it clearly distinguishes among them, in that impulse and motive play no part in determining the offense in question, whereas deliberation and immediate aim do. Under Sg 8 and 9, however, the impulse — anger — is conflated under motive: the desire to see another bhikkhu expelled from the Saṅgha. In fact, under most rules the Vibhaṅga does not make a clear distinction among these sub-factors, so it seems artificial to force a consistent distinction throughout. Thus the approach followed here is to place these considerations under one heading — intention — and to alert the reader to the distinctions among them only when important...

...Although it may seem harsh to impose penalties for unintentional actions, we must again reflect on the state of mind that leads to such actions. In some acts, of course, the intention makes all the difference between guilt and innocence. Taking an article with intent to return it, for example, is something else entirely from taking it with intent to steal. There are, however, other acts with damaging consequences that, when performed unintentionally, reveal carelessness and lack of circumspection in areas where a person may reasonably be held responsible. Many of the rules dealing with the proper care of Community property and one's basic requisites fall in this category. Except for one very unlikely situation, though, none of the major rules carry a penalty if broken unintentionally, while the minor rules that do carry such penalties may be regarded as useful lessons in mindfulness.
-M
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Moth »

Perhaps there is some loophole case where one can drink, or perhaps there may be some reasonable justification for it at a certain moment, but ultimately what's the point? One drinks alcohol (non-medically) because of tanha. The whole point of our practice is to uproot tanha. Even if one did not want to drink, but had to due to some social obligation they are still doing so because of tanha--if not for the liquor then for their being-for-others/sakkaya ditthi.
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Viscid »

Sometimes I don't know whether the strict adherence to the precepts that is advocated by fundamentalist Buddhists are a product of incredible piety or incredible neuroticism. I question why having such a restrictive interpretation of the precepts would be so instrumental in the development of concentration, wisdom and insight.
[Ananda:] "What, O Venerable One, is the reward and blessing of wholesome morality?"

[The Buddha:] "Freedom from remorse, Ananda."
It would seem to me that how strictly one should interpret the precepts would depend on whether or not one's interpretation reliably prevents them from experiencing remorse. If you are not remorseful drinking a single beer, and it does not result in unwholesome action or mindlessness, then what's the harm?
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Nibbida »

Viscid wrote:Sometimes I don't know whether the strict adherence to the precepts that is advocated by fundamentalist Buddhists are a product of incredible piety or incredible neuroticism. I question why having such a restrictive interpretation of the precepts would be so instrumental in the development of concentration, wisdom and insight.
[Ananda:] "What, O Venerable One, is the reward and blessing of wholesome morality?"

[The Buddha:] "Freedom from remorse, Ananda."
It would seem to me that how strictly one should interpret the precepts would depend on whether or not one's interpretation reliably prevents them from experiencing remorse. If you are not remorseful drinking a single beer, and it does not result in unwholesome action or mindlessness, then what's the harm?

It tends to detract from samadhi, which is reason enough for me.
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Viscid »

Nibbida wrote:It tends to detract from samadhi, which is reason enough for me.
Right, and that's a very good reason. But if you knowingly enjoyed a small enough amount of alcohol so that it didn't detract from samadhi, then you'd agree that there was no harm in it.
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Mawkish1983 »

Viscid wrote:if you knowingly enjoyed a small enough amount of alcohol so that it didn't detract from samadhi
In my past experience, that isn't possible. In my past experience, any alcohol consumed has an effect on samadhi.
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Lazy_eye »

Mawkish1983 wrote:
Viscid wrote:if you knowingly enjoyed a small enough amount of alcohol so that it didn't detract from samadhi
In my past experience, that isn't possible. In my past experience, any alcohol consumed has an effect on samadhi.
Makes sense. But how does that effect compare to that of other activities a person might be involved with during the course of a day? For example -- watching a movie. Playing a sport. Having sex. Getting into a heated discussion on an internet Buddhist forum.

Don't we run into this problem anyway as long as we are attempting samadhi in a non-secluded environment?
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Mawkish1983 »

... which is precisely what I was asking before, but maybe in a less direct way :)
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