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Is alcohol allowable in certain cases? - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
manjughosamani
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Postby manjughosamani » Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:40 pm

Sabbe saṅkhārā anicca'ti yadā paññāya passati
Atha nibbindati dukkhe esa maggo visuddhiyā.

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Nibbida
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Postby Nibbida » Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:59 pm


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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:55 pm

It seems to me, based upon my own experience, that a desire to consume alcoholic beverages, or engage in other mood altering substances reveals an attachment and clinging. Since we already know the result of clinging, attachment, and desire, the point of continuing the practice would be what?: Exchange of short term pleasure for long term dukkha?
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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Vardali
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Postby Vardali » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:08 pm

I really wonder how much Christian puritanism is involved in interpreting this precept?
I mean do our Asian posters here from a Buddhist cultural background interprete it with the same level of strictness or lenience as Western converts?

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:19 pm

• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

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Ben
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Postby Ben » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:46 pm

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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retrofuturist
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:05 pm

Greetings Ben,

There's probably pragmatic reasons for it. Imagine this...

"Oh dear, I had no idea this drink had alcohol in it... (wink, wink)... those naughty, naughty laypeople giving me inadmissable offerings (wink, wink, guffaw, hic)"

If it's a Vinaya offence regardless, it cuts out the wink winks and encourages monks to be vigilant about such offerings.

As an aside, the impact of lack of sleep on mindfulness (think about road safety advertising, for example) is often said to exceed that of a small amount of alcohol. I'm sure you've been less mindful before at 2am than after a 0.5% beer during the day.... and mindfulness is whole the point, yes?

I would see sila as a means to an end, not an end in itself.

Mettam
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:28 pm

• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

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daverupa
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Postby daverupa » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:40 pm


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Ben
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Postby Ben » Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:06 pm

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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retrofuturist
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:20 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Ben
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Postby Ben » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:11 am

Hi Retro
Thanks for that reply. I'm in the middle of a huge cooking session so I'll be brief...
To be clear, I am not trying to judge myself. Certainly I am using an example of my recent past experience but I'm merely seeking clarification on what Venerable said and that has to do with the role of intention in sila. And I am seeking clarification so as to assess and correct my own understanding.

As for exploring the nexus between my own query and the five aggregates - that is an interesting avenue of investigation but not one I can attend to immediately. Perhaps later.
Anyway, garlic and ginger are calling me away...
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

Mawkish1983
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Postby Mawkish1983 » Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:55 pm


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Ben
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Postby Ben » Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:50 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

Mawkish1983
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Postby Mawkish1983 » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:05 am


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ground
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Postby ground » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:34 am


meindzai
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Postby meindzai » Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:17 pm


meindzai
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Postby meindzai » Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:24 pm


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Moth
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Postby Moth » Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:41 pm

Perhaps there is some loophole case where one can drink, or perhaps there may be some reasonable justification for it at a certain moment, but ultimately what's the point? One drinks alcohol (non-medically) because of tanha. The whole point of our practice is to uproot tanha. Even if one did not want to drink, but had to due to some social obligation they are still doing so because of tanha--if not for the liquor then for their being-for-others/sakkaya ditthi.
May you be happy. May you be a peace. May you be free from suffering.
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Viscid
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Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Postby Viscid » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:11 pm

"What holds attention determines action." - William James


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