Overcoming passion

[UrgeSurfer]

Hi, this is my first post so apologies if it is in the wrong section or even the completely wrong forum.

I have been practicing Goenka based Vipassana for the better part of 16 years. I have even sat longer courses and am pretty good at maintaining my daily practice of 2 hours. During my practice of Vipassana I have become much calmer and more focussed, have stopped drinking and drug-taking altogether (used to be a heavy drinker and pot smoker) and generally feel much better about the direction my life is taking.

However, I still feel that I am way too easily overcome by passion. I am in a very happy marriage, my wife is also an old student of Vipassana, yet too often I find myself browsing inappropriate websites and engaging in self-sex. I spend way too much time fantasising about other women even though there is absolutely no way I would act out these fantasies in real life.

I am also a member of an online support group for these sorts of behaviours but pretty much all the other members are coming from a Christian /12 step perspective which doesn't resonate with me at all.

I was wondering if anyone here has encountered similar difficulties and what they have done about it.

Thanks for reading.

[Ben]

Hi Urgesurfer and welcome to DW!
I'm also an 'old student' of SN Goenka. As a matter of interest, when you say you've done longer courses, specifically, what length courses have you done? And when did you do them?
kind regards

Ben

[pegembara]

Check out this 32 parts body meditation. It reduces the attraction to our external self.

This meditation has a special place in the Dharma. It is one of very few subjects of meditation which contain both a tranquillity aspect and an insight aspect. As well, it is a very useful practical meditation, providing a powerful antidote to the hindrance of lust.

http://www.arrowriver.ca/dhamma/body.html

[tiltbillings]

I find myself browsing inappropriate websites and engaging in self-sex. I spend way too much time fantasising about other women even

There is nothing here to beat yourself over. If anything, you might try extending some compassion towards yourself. And when you are having these urges, before get out of hand (or in hand), best when you just feel the initial inkling, just sit quietly and pay attention without comment to what you are feeling, the urge to resist the action, the urge to act on the desire. Even though the habits are deeply established, you can choose how to act here, to sit quietly, paying attention.

Of course, all of that easy to say and very difficult to do, but each time you choose to simply try to pay attention rather than allowing yourself to get lost in the feelings, acting on your desires, you are weakening the hold of the old pattern. And as I said, have compassion for yourself, be kind to yourself, just as you would towards another who might be coming to you with this problem, asking for advice. And be kind to yourself in your "failures." In paying attention you learn the nature of the habit that is driving you. You see the discomfort of wanting, the pain of wanting to not want, the burning of the sexual urge and humiliation of giving into it when you think you should not.

Basically, allow yourself to be uncomfortable. Learn to start putting some space around the urges, stepping back a bit just so you can pay attention - without comment. One of the more interesting experiences in meditation is catching that moment when the desire drops away.

All of this is going to be a struggle, an exploration, which is well worth doing. You have the meditation experience. It will be a bit different from what you are use to doing, but the basics are there to just pay attention to what arises and falls in your mind/body as the urge to act out starts to present itself. Like the habit you developed, it will need to be done over and over. There is really no other way.

[daverupa]

Maybe fast for a day or two, and really get used to the hunger pangs. Then, later, when you feel the sort of lust arising as you mention, you might try equating it with the hunger feeling. Mere groin hunger, instead of gut hunger, if you will. Because of having suffered from relatively severe gastrointestinal issues, decoupling such urges and noting them as mere body input is of great help to me. Maybe such an approach can help here as well.

Another method from my experience: it is definitely the case that related thoughts increase the valence of the hunger (in either case) - at the root thereof I find a certain boredom, and the related thoughts which arise seem to be the minds way of finding me something to do, i.e. of solving the boredom. Well, boredom is dukkha, and in response to such thoughts I reiterate that I have gone for refuge to the Dhamma, and not to the minds native skills (because the Dhamma works against suffering while native skills only keep me alive to propagate DNA). In my experience, therefore, being mindful of such boredom as it arises can prevent lust from even developing.

The Buddha himself remarks in the Vinaya that sexual desire is a tenacious bugbear (I paraphrase), so take heart. We're all in this together.

[UrgeSurfer]

Thanks for all the compassion and wisdom in all your answers.

@Ben, I did a 20 day course last year. I have also sat two Satipatthana courses.

@pegembara, thanks for the link. Actually an Assistant Teacher I went and talked to a few years ago about this same issue recommended much the same thing. At the time it didn't really gel with me, but I'm willing to look at it again.

@tiltbillings, thanks a lot for your post. I've really been trying to get to the place you describe. It's good to hear it reflected back at me.

@daverupa, I agree with a lot in your post, boredom is definitely a 'trigger' for me.

… the basics are there to just pay attention to what arises and falls in your mind/body as the urge to act out starts to present itself. Like the habit you developed, it will need to be done over and over. There is really no other way.

I think this is the heart of the matter. Deep down I know what I need to do, it's just a matter of sticking to doing it.

Metta.

[unspoken]

I know what you lack of,tranquility and concentration. Samatha meditation will help. Engage in tranquility meditation. If it's better if you can enter Jhana. Practice more.
Identify yourself, let's try this out. If you practice vipassana you feel really peaceful, try on samatha. If you practice samatha and feel very hard to keep it up, i suggest you train samatha. Now you lack tranquility in attacking your desires.

Few days ago, I did engaged myself on m@aturbation. But then I found out, even I know that I should not be doing it(having observant on my actions), but my mind is too weak to overcome the desire. So I trained myself in samatha meditation. And I can see now the effect of it, the desires are slowly losing. But I'm still thinking of it....shyt.... oh well, going back to samatha again.

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

Samatha meditation is not enough — one should practice vipassanā meditation.

There are four foundations of mindfulness — the body, feelings, thoughts, and mental states. One should observe and be mindful of all four, not only the body (respiration) and feelings, but also consciousness (citta) and dhamma.

When seeing a visible object with the eye, be aware that you see it. So too, with sounds, odours, tastes, and touches. Be especially mindful when thinking thoughts. Fantasising must be known and noted whenever it arises as a mental process. Don't suppress it, know it for what it is — utter delusion and heedlessness.

So too with mental states: when lust or anger arise they should be observed as they occur. When sloth or restless arise they should be known too, and when doubt or confusion arises, it should also be known. All mental states should be observed in the same way — excited, elated, joyful, sorrowful, anxious, fearful, etc.

A Discourse on the Mālukyaputta Sutta

“Having thought of a mind object, one loses mindfulness. Getting involved in the attraction of it, one feels the onset of desire that tries to imbibe it.”

“A multitude of passions such as covetousness and rage, springing from ideas, torments one who takes a firm hold of it, with the result that his mind becomes burdened with vexation. Therefore, nibbāna remains remote from one who would rather carry the burden of suffering than practise meditation.”

[Ben]

Samatha meditation is not enough — one should practice vipassanā meditation.

Indeed!

[Fede]

UrgeSurfer, I also think that perhaps you need to harden up and consider that you are being ....'sensitive'....with your describing the problem.

It's not passion, it's Lust.
It's not self-sex - it's masturbation.
It's not 'inappropriate websites' - it's porn.

Call a spade a damned shovel.
Sometimes, the reality and no-nonsense approach to what we do, can be a better 'cold bucket of water' to our mind, than dressing it up in more flowery terms.

These things, for a lay Buddhist, need not necessarily be hindrances, providing you preceive them for what they are. Distractions to practice, to which one can form an unhealthy attachment.

Lust per se, is not negative, or evil.
Masturbation, per se, is not negative or evil.
Porn, per se, is not negative or evil.

These can be covered by the third precept:
I vow to refrain from indulging in inappropriate sexual behaviour.
The Buddha outlined what that was.

You and your wife are not ordained as a monk and nun.
And sex and Lust are not "sinful".

This Link may help.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el225.html

And on a final note, scroll down, all the way down, and read the very last line.

And exchange the word 'passion' for 'Lust'.

There, you have all you need to know.

From a very simple-minded member.

[Ben]

Hi Fede

I don't think Urgesurfer is being particularly sensitive. He is merely using the terminology used in the tradition. Masturbation is known as 'self-sex', and lust is known as 'passion'. I suspect it comes from the english usage of the Burmese, perhaps its the ethnic indian burmese, from the 1950s and has been transmitted to the present day courtesy of Urgesurfer's and my teacher, SN Goenka.
kind regards

Ben

[Fede]

Thank you.

I understand now, and apologise if I have inadvertently confused matters more.
I merely felt, from my position that actually being more forthright in terminology would both clarify, and give more clarity, to meditative attempts to cut through the illusion of attachment.

I regret adding to the muddle!
but I hope the link is still useful.....

Incidentally, all advice and efforts here, to support and counsel, are extremely valuable, educational and commendable, if I may say so.

With Metta.

[Bodha8]

Hello Fede,

I for one see no reason for your apology. You were merely offering an alternative view. I believe your post was very positive and quite possibly could have been the turning point in the solution to the problem.

Thank you for your compassionate effort.

Namaste

Bodha8

[Fede]

You are most kind.

And welcome to the forum.

[Viscid]

Masturbation and looking at pornography is practically harmless, you shouldn't feel guilty about doing it. You're just creating a problem and unnecessary stress over something which causes no one any harm. You're a married, fully functioning man: you shouldn't want, and don't need, to overcome lust. If you were a monk, it'd be a different story.

[daverupa]

Masturbation and looking at pornography is practically harmless

Masturbation can be healthy in fact, helping prevent prostate cancer among other things. But health of rupa at what cost for nama? That's perhaps a better place to go looking for the harm, with the same sort of issues cropping up as happen in vegetarian discussions. It's for the layperson to decide.

Porn, however, isn't quite so harmless. In the Anguttara Nikaya, the Buddha says that trade in humans is among the five livelihoods one oughtn't to undertake. Given that porn materials are created in various environments, many exploitative, the porn industry might fit in under 'trade in humans' in this respect, which is one problem. Furthermore, using porn to masturbate trains the mind to see a sexual other as a mere object, a vehicle for one's lust - where is the compassion there, the equanimity even? You can't look at porn while masturbating and practice the brahmaviharas, and that means porn is a choice to abandon the Dhamma, even if only for a few minutes.

This isn't tantrism.

you shouldn't want, and don't need, to overcome lust.

Oh? You probably mean a specific kind of lust, because abandoning lust generally is sort of the point. Which sort of lust doesn't cause suffering, I wonder...

[Moth]

you shouldn't want, and don't need, to overcome lust.

Lust is a type of craving, and craving is the origin of suffering. As I understand it, a buddhist is a person who is following the Noble Eightfold Path. A person follows the Noble Eightfold Path to uproot the origin of suffering.

[Viscid]

you shouldn't want, and don't need, to overcome lust.

Lust is a type of craving, and craving is the origin of suffering. As I understand it, a buddhist is a person who is following the Noble Eightfold Path. A person follows the Noble Eightfold Path to uproot the origin of suffering.

But he's married! He's supposed to be lusty!

[altar]

i found tilt and daverupa's posts to be the most interesting and insightful.
They seem to be opposite ends of the spectrum. Tilt's is a watch and observe, gentle approach. Daverupa's is a actually still a watch and observe technique, but keeping in mind the base cause of it, or the mental anguish or boredom one is escaping. I agree, especially theoretically, with this latter technique, of Dave's. However, it doesn't always work because lust can be too strong (passion). Passion coupled with boredom is a hectic state, because one has nothing to do but keeps seeking an outlet. Watching the boredom seems to cause a lot of aversion to arise, i.e., it is easier to let the desire happen, possibly more natural. The apparent trouble then is that one actually does seek to realize their desire. This is I'm looking for a form of balance, which extends throughout the day as well. It's confusing and difficult how to strike a balance between watching desire as it unfolds versus restraint+watching desire not unfold. I guess one way is returning to a samatha object but either desire seems to creep in there, too, or if you completely ban desire it seems unhealthily strict, depending on the specifics.
p.s. I have an unrelated question, is the little dying scarecrow in the bottom right of the emoticons new? I have not noticed it before. edit: I see it is for strawmen.

[Stillsitting]

I am responding to the original post, even though it is more than a year old, because it is something that i am dealing with.

Although I have been meditating for many years, it is only recently that I have rededicated and recommitted myself to a regular practice of Vipassana mediation - twice a day, one hour a day, plus a practice of metta.

At the same time, I recently began to attend a weekly 12-step program for sexual addiction.

However, at a deep level the two practices - vipassana and the 12-steps - seem to be in conflict for me.

While Vipassana practice is just to observe with equanimity whatever arises, the 12 steps - particularly at the meetings - seems to be more about consciously digging up and even dwelling on the past.

For me, Vipassana is wonderful reality check and I feel that with a regular twice a day practice there is very little chance that I will engage in sexual misconduct. I am attending the 12-step meetings as a further guarantee. But now I wonder whether the 12-step meetings in fact keep my energy unduly focused on sex, sexual misconduct, etc. - rather than just letting this, and any other energy, naturally arise and fall away.

Tiltbillings replied to the original poster that what is needed is compassion. Compassion is a strong basis of my practice. However, much of the language of the 12-step program, and also of many of the attendees, seems to be of a self-berating nature, which I find to be deflating.

I'm wondering if other Vipassana practitioners have experience with 12-step programs, particularly for sex addiction, and what are your thoughts.

With metta