Taking members seriously

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Re: Taking members seriously

Postby Ben » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:33 pm

No worries Jhana4.
I hear what you are saying.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Taking members seriously

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:12 pm

Greetings Jechbi,

Jechbi wrote:Privately, Retro, I have received messages from other Dhamma Wheel members who recognize what's happening here and who have told me they don't like what they see in your conduct.

Given your history of shameful misrepresentations of what others have said and done (many deleted during your latest selective cull of blog comments that don't favour you) I'll wait until these members tell me directly about their concerns, rather than take your word for it. They are welcome to, and if they don't feel comfortable doing so publicly, or privately, they may do so via another member of staff. If I can improve as a person, moderator or administrator, then I am well and truly open to that.

Jechbi wrote:The goal is to force me to "let go" and "move on" so that the board leadership problems I am discussing can continue to be denied, ignored, and not openly discussed. Then a certain self-selected group of members here (thankfully not including all members) can return to the fiction that the board is fine just the way it is. Some of us know better.

Yet of course you know better... so the crusade and search for fault lives on.

DN 21 wrote:"'Searching is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? When one knows of a search, 'As I pursue this search, unskillful mental qualities increase, and skillful mental qualities decline,' that sort of search is not to be pursued. When one knows of a search, 'As I pursue this search, unskillful mental qualities decline, and skillful mental qualities increase,' that sort of search is to be pursued. 'Searching is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.

For the record, I believe the functioning of Dhamma Wheel is very transparent. Many of our policies are a reaction to the closed-door policies of E-Sangha, hence the fact we're having this discussion here in the first place. We only ban/suspend members based on Terms Of Service violations rather than personal taste or laziness, hence the fact you're still here.

As I've said to you since the commencement of your crusade, if others raised the issues and concerns you had, then we would re-investigate them and give them further thought... but the thing is, and maybe now after seeing a couple of these recent Announcement / Suggestion Box topics in which you seem to be getting no traction whatsoever you might actually start to see this... when you speak, you speak only for yourself, not for the hypothetically repressed masses.

We've even set up topics specifically to say "tell us how the forum can be improved" and we've made fully clear people needn't fear this. I don't know how much of this openness, transparency and good will to those who wish to improve Dhamma Wheel you can simply ignore before your blinkers finally crack and you realise your conspiracy theories are just that.

If you don't want to be seen as a contrarian (and let's be honest, who does?), you might want to give some thought to the Buddha's counsel to a certain monk in SN 22.36...

"Whatever one stays obsessed with, that's what one is measured by. Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. Whatever one doesn't stay obsessed with, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified."

The certain monk understood the detailed meaning of what the Buddha said in brief, and delighting in and approving of the Blessed One's words, got up from his seat and bowed down to the Blessed One, circled around him, keeping the Blessed One to his right, and departed. Then, dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, he in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus he became another one of the arahants.

However, for the one who obsesses, there remains birth and its concomitant suffering.

SN 12.38 wrote:Staying at Savatthi... [the Blessed One said,] "What one intends, what one arranges, and what one obsesses about: This is a support for the stationing of consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing [or: an establishing] of consciousness. When that consciousness lands and grows, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

"If one doesn't intend and doesn't arrange, but one still obsesses [about something], this is a support for the stationing of consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing of consciousness. When that consciousness lands and grows, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Such [too] is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

"But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."

Moving to MN 18 we can see that the source of perceived conflict can arise from thoughts and conceptual proliferation...

MN 18 wrote:When there is the intellect, when there are ideas, when there is intellect-consciousness, it is possible that one will delineate a delineation of contact. When there is a delineation of contact, it is possible that one will delineate a delineation of feeling. When there is a delineation of feeling, it is possible that one will delineate a delineation of perception. When there is a delineation of perception, it is possible that one will delineate a delineation of thinking. When there is a delineation of thinking, it is possible that one will delineate a delineation of being assailed by the perceptions & categories of objectification.

Delineations of contact are one's own doing, for the sutta makes clear one needn't necessarily do this.

Ven. Maha Kaccana in MN 18 wrote:'If, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions & categories of objectification assail a person, there is nothing there to relish, welcome, or remain fastened to, then that is the end of the obsessions of passion, the obsessions of resistance, the obsessions of views, the obsessions of uncertainty, the obsessions of conceit, the obsessions of passion for becoming, & the obsessions of ignorance. That is the end of taking up rods & bladed weapons, of arguments, quarrels, disputes, accusations, divisive tale-bearing, & false speech. That is where these evil, unskillful things cease without remainder' — this is how I understand the detailed meaning."

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Taking members seriously

Postby Fede » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:44 pm

The horse died long ago.
yet we still see it being flogged.....

In my opinion, this is sheer unadulterated foolishness.

And I'm not referring to any Moderator contribution here. I actually marvel at their patience and tenacity. :namaste:

Count yourself as truly blessed, and fortunate, Jechbi; If this was anywhere else, you'd have been summarily dismissed as a troll. :rules:
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: Taking members seriously

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:50 pm

It is time to draw a line under this and close the thread. Far too much energy is being wasted by all concerned when they could be learning and sharing their knowledge of Dhamma.

The best moderation policy is that moderation is not up for discussion, and definitely not in public. The moderators should decide among themselves on the policy, and review its implementation periodically in the light of user feedback.

If any members don't like the policy or its implementation, they should go elsewhere voluntarily, or be suspended, then banned if they don't agree to abide by the rules that they signed up for.

They are free to complain about moderation of the forum on their own blogs, as I did about E-Sangha, but it should not be allowed here.

On every forum I ever used, > 99% of disruption is caused by < 1% of users, and disruption equates to time and effort wasted by moderators.
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Re: Taking members seriously

Postby Ben » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:53 pm

With that excellent post from Bhante, I will now close this thread.
Before I do so, I would like to reiterate some advice to our members.

If you have a concern regarding the quality of moderation, seeking a review of a moderation decision or wish to complain about a moderator and/or administrator, I suggest that you raise it with the mod/admin in question. If you don't feel comfortable doing that, please use the complaints procedure pinned in the announcements forum.

As I mentioned earlier, my colleagues and I are motivated to facilitate an environment where Dhamma discussion can flourish. We are only human and sometimes mistakes are made. Any request for a review of a mod decision and complaint is taken seriously.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
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Re: Taking members seriously

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:09 am

A couple of comments before this drifts downs to ocean bottom:

The idea that there is any "scapegoating" going on in this thread or on the forum in general really warrants no comment other than to say it really warrants no comment.

What does warrant a comment is Ven Peasala's to the point statement:

The best moderation policy is that moderation is not up for discussion, and definitely not in public. The moderators should decide among themselves on the policy, and review its implementation periodically in the light of user feedback.

It needs to be pointed out that behind the scenes the moderators here use the TOS as a basis for actions taken, that things are not done in an arbitrary manner, and this is due to Retro's insistence that we take seriously issues that arise and that we proceed in accordance to the TOS. Without that, it would be all too easy to slip into the chaos of arbitrary action. While not perfect the moderators here do try to make this a good place for Dhamma discussions.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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