Conversations with devas

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Conversations with devas

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Does anyone know of any reports of anyone having done this in recent history?

MN 79: Culasakuludayi Sutta
http://www.dhammaweb.net/Tipitaka/read.php?id=113" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Venerable sir, isn’t there another course of actions, for realising the world of pleasant feelings, is this the only course of action?’

‘Udayi, this is not the only course of actions, for realising the world of pleasant feelings only. There are other courses of action, for realising the world of pleasant feelings only.’

When this was said, Udayi’s gathering of wandering ascetics, became noisy. They said, it is only this much we know to realise. Then the wandering ascetic Sakuludaayi silenced his gathering and said to the Blessed One. ‘Venerable sir, how is this world of only pleasant feelings realised?’

‘Here, Udayi, the bhikkhu dispelling pleasantness and unpleasaantness, purifying mindfulness with equanimity, without pleasantness and unpleasantness, earlier having overcome pleasure and displeasure and mindfulness purified with equanimity abides in the fourth jhana; Whoever gods be born in the world of only pleasantness, with them he talks and discusses things. Udayi, this is the realising of the world of pleasantness only.’
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17186
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Conversations with devas

Post by DNS »

retrofuturist wrote: Does anyone know of any reports of anyone having done this in recent history?
Do you mean talk to the gods (devas)?

I imagine no one would believe him or her, if anyone even made such a claim (true or untrue).
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Conversations with devas

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings TheDhamma,

I think one of the earlier Thai Forest monks (was it Ajahn Mun?) supposedly saw devas, and I understand that such comments were not without controversy.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
SeerObserver
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:52 pm
Location: USA

Re: Conversations with devas

Post by SeerObserver »

There are many accounts of people encountering pretas. This is also met with skepticism, although less so than encounters with devas. It seems easy to believe that pretas linger and make themselves known in order for us to be able to help them somehow. People seem to have a hard time believing devas are sometimes in need of the same. This post from ANOTHER THREAD is relevant.
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Conversations with devas

Post by Cittasanto »

this is the only thing that came to mind it is quite a long video and the info is through out although I am not convinced

http://www.consciousmedianetwork.com/me ... gibson.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
jcsuperstar
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
Location: alaska
Contact:

Re: Conversations with devas

Post by jcsuperstar »

i dont think it's mun's talking with devas that causes problems, it's his talking with arahants that people take issue with.. :juggling:
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Conversations with devas

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings JC,
jcsuperstar wrote:i dont think it's mun's talking with devas that causes problems, it's his talking with arahants that people take issue with.. :juggling:
Oh yeah... that's right. Were these arahants that had already achieved parinibbana, or didn't he specify?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
jcsuperstar
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
Location: alaska
Contact:

Re: Conversations with devas

Post by jcsuperstar »

i'm not sure... i never read the whole bio... :embarassed:
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Conversations with devas

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings JC,
jcsuperstar wrote:i'm not sure... i never read the whole bio... :embarassed:
Well I read it... but I can't remember :embarassed:

I assume if they were living, it wouldn't have been such a problem. The problem presumably relates the traditional assessment on what parinibbana constitutes; cessation and so on.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
nathan
Posts: 692
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:11 am

Re: Conversations with devas

Post by nathan »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Does anyone know of any reports of anyone having done this in recent history?

Retro. :)
Yes Retro. I'm willing to report doing it. I'm not willing to engage in an argument about whether it can be done or not. I think the highest level discussion about this I have seen are in the context of what has been called pure land jhanas on the Dharma Overground board. Jhana has been treated very broadly and openly in terms of developmental pathways on that board. It is an engaging discussion. I think I would be willing to discuss my thinking on how it might be occurring from the fourth jhana internally stable enough to be externally engaged in the senses and so informed by this. There may also be some perceptual changes from access to the formless jhana involving boundless consciousness and boundless space that would impact externalized perception. The nana processes also contribute to forms of perceptual stability that are both internalized and externalized. Personally I think unbinding is perceptually potentially a liberation from space time and so the question of whether the Buddha can be perceptive of Buddhas past or future directly or not is moot. They are aware, so are arahats, seems they are more likely to be able to be aware of each other, whenever and wherever they were, as not. Sorry, not much time for forums these days.

Just to add on a more practical note. I have approached the meditation on the Buddha as a kind of space time unbinding. I reflect not on an image of the man or anything narrative. I reflect on the qualities of mind of the very mind of the Buddha as if present to me. I try to mindfully compose a mirror of that mind and it is not a very linear reflection, very qualitative. So very non-dual kinds of perspectives reminiscent of formless concentrations like emptiness, unbounded space, and unbounded consciousness seem to have a role in this. Certainly adds to the meditation to realize that there is a commonality of nibbana at the heart of that kind of a communion and in a purity of mind when the mind is purified by jhana.

metta & upekkha
nathan
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Conversations with devas

Post by rowyourboat »

i think I agree with nathan on this. Interestingly the Buddha asks ven sariputta whether buddhas of the past appeared to him, and he says no, in one sutta. This is the closest I have got to seeing it said in the suttas.

I might add that the question whether the buddha or arahanths appears nowadays is flawed- they never existed in a concrete sense- you could say 'they' 'existed' as strings of causes and effects which passed on information sequentially. Something manifests some of the causes in a mind now - this image that appears -it is neither belongs to the 'person' seeing it, nor does it belong to anyone else- but the information that this image generates maybe from another string of causes and effects; hope that makes some kind of sense..
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
rahul
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:35 pm

Re: Conversations with devas

Post by rahul »

Interestingly the Buddha asks ven sariputta whether buddhas of the past appeared to him, and he says no, in one sutta
what Buddha might had wanted to know is that whether he (sariputta) is able to recall any incident from his previous lives that specifically involves past Buddhas.

Remember, Buddha himself has recognized 6 previous Buddhas on the basis of recollection of his past lives and they never just appeared to him (for the sake of conversation) through jhanhic cultivation or otherwise.
User avatar
pink_trike
Posts: 1130
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:29 am
Contact:

Re: Conversations with devas

Post by pink_trike »

I'll say this as respectfully as I can: mental illness existed then also. Auditory hallucinations can be caused by something as simple as specific dietary deficiencies, or certain fungus that grows on grains. Even without auditory hallucinations, dreams/visions/messages from the god(s) etc... are often simply elaborate flights of imagination into delusions of grandeur in order to escape looking reality spang in the eye.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5611
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Conversations with devas

Post by robertk »

jcsuperstar wrote:i dont think it's mun's talking with devas that causes problems, it's his talking with arahants that people take issue with.. :juggling:
and the long dead Buddha's he used he greet.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22382
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Conversations with devas

Post by Ceisiwr »

Greetings Robert

and the long dead Buddha's he used he greet

Could you show a quote where he said he has done this?



Metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Post Reply