Paying For The Dhamma

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cooran
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Re: Paying For The Dhamma

Post by cooran »

The sarcastic tone of your post was unnecessary Tiltbillings, and certainly inhibits conversation ¬ so, I think I’ll leave it at that.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Paying For The Dhamma

Post by tiltbillings »

cooran wrote:The sarcastic tone of your post was unnecessary Tiltbillings, and certainly inhibits conversation ¬ so, I think I’ll leave it at that.
Then explain to me your implied criticism. Anybody can write a check. It does not really amount to anything. You need to get out there DO something for it to really count. The sarcasm was appropriate to a rather unfortunate response from you.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ben
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Re: Paying For The Dhamma

Post by Ben »

tiltbillings wrote:the Dhamma is not free. It requires support,
I agree. And I have no problem whatsoever in supporting publishers and dhamma booksellers such as Wisdom, Pariyatti and Dhamma Books. Without financially supporting these organisations by buying Dhamma books, they would not be able to bring to the world fantastic translations of the Nikayas, ancient commentarial literature and the works of modern scholars.

http://www.pariyatti.org/Publishing/tab ... fault.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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octathlon
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Re: Paying For The Dhamma

Post by octathlon »

tiltbillings wrote:
maitreya31 wrote:The Dharma should be free
Are you willing to support it so that it is free?
:strawman:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Paying For The Dhamma

Post by tiltbillings »

octathlon wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
maitreya31 wrote:The Dharma should be free
Are you willing to support it so that it is free?
:strawman:
Straw man. That does not say anything. Elaborate, please.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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octathlon
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Re: Paying For The Dhamma

Post by octathlon »

I don't know if "strawman" is the correct way to put it, but what I mean is: the truth of "The Dhamma should be free" stands on its own and it is irrelevant whether maitreya31 is willing to support it.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Paying For The Dhamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Taking something of an historical perspective to this, I believe it originates from the fact the Buddha and his Sangha refused any gratuity for their teachings as this may have jeopardized the integrity of the teachings. There were certainly sectarian contemporaries who were "in it for the money" and the Sangha wanted to avoid any such inference. In my mind then the focus should not be on the "Dhamma should be free" angle (which originates from god knows where), but rather "The Dhamma should not be exploited for personal gain".

Often in these discussions, the subject of Dhamma books come up and whether they should be free. Often the subject of Bhikkhu Bodhi's valuable translations come into the discussion too. These translations are not free, but they are produced on a not for profit basis. If they were to be free to the end recipient, someone else indirectly would be paying for them, because they don't just appear on your bookshelf without work performed by a lot of people, whether that work is direct (effort) or indirect (funding). Free dhamma books are no more cost-free than those you pay for... it's just that they're effectively being purchased and subsequently gifted by the donor(s).

Indeed the Dhamma is the greatest of all gifts, but the cultivation of unwholesome mindstates rooted in conceit are detrimental to the individual and any attempts at dhammadatu they may be involved in. Accordingly I hope this topic doesn't become a "my dana's bigger than your dana" discussion as there's something distasteful about such comparisons, quite probably because they are the Dhamma being used for personal gain (e.g. pride, recognition, righteousness), which is precisely what the Buddha was trying to avoid in the first place with his actions.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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tiltbillings
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Re: Paying For The Dhamma

Post by tiltbillings »

octathlon wrote:I don't know if "strawman" is the correct way to put it, but what I mean is: the truth of "The Dhamma should be free" stands on its own and it is irrelevant whether maitreya31 is willing to support it.
Except that the Dhamma is not free. It requires support. It always has, which is the point. One may go to the local wat to hear a Dhamma talk without having to pay for it, but the Wat and the food for the monls requires money and other help to exist.
maitreya31 may not have money or the physical ability to help support his/her local Dhamma center/wat, but to say without any qualification - "The Dharma should be free" - is to not understand the reality. So, maitreya31's statement - "The Dharma should be free" - is meaningless.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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octathlon
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Re: Paying For The Dhamma

Post by octathlon »

tiltbillings wrote:
octathlon wrote:I don't know if "strawman" is the correct way to put it, but what I mean is: the truth of "The Dhamma should be free" stands on its own and it is irrelevant whether maitreya31 is willing to support it.
Except that the Dhamma is not free. It requires support. It always has, which is the point. One may go to the local wat to hear a Dhamma talk without having to pay for it, but the Wat and the food for the monls requires money and other help to exist.
maitreya31 may not have money or the physical ability to help support his/her local Dhamma center/wat, but to say without any qualification - "The Dharma should be free" - is to not understand the reality. So, maitreya31's statement - "The Dharma should be free" - is meaningless.
Hmm, I guess the problem was the wording of the statement rather than the sentiment behind it. Maybe it should be rephrased as "Payment should not be required for access to the Dhamma." Everyone should have access to it. How sad if during the time that the Dhamma teaching exists on Earth that people should be denied hearing it because they couldn't "pay" for it. It is not a commodity to buy and sell but a priceless gift from the Buddha.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Paying For The Dhamma

Post by tiltbillings »

octathlon wrote: Everyone should have access to it.
I don't disagree, but it is an interesting question as to what that actually might mean.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Jhana4
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Re: Paying For The Dhamma

Post by Jhana4 »

As far as books and videos go, it would be interesting experiment to see some made available for free download along with some kind of graphic device ( like a thermometer ) showing how much of the cost has been paid for so far, by donations.
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One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
nobody12345
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Re: Paying For The Dhamma

Post by nobody12345 »

Bankei wrote: Ordination as a monk in Thailand, for example, is very expensive.
Bankei
How much do they charge in Thailand?
minthukyaw
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Re: Paying For The Dhamma

Post by minthukyaw »

Bankei wrote:You may be surprised to learn that the Dhamma is not free in the Eastern world either (generally).

Ordination as a monk in Thailand, for example, is very expensive.

Bankei
It is absolutely free in Myanmar . but ordination as a monk in some poor monasteries in rural sides , pay a little amount of money for Food like donation .
poor monasteries means not much people donation to those monastery . They 're not doing business .
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Nibbida
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Re: Paying For The Dhamma

Post by Nibbida »

It's important to recognize the context of the Buddha's time versus contemporary Westernized societies. There is no cultural context of supporting monks/nuns in the way that there was then. If we relied solely on that, very few of us would have had access to teachings either in person or in print. But even in the Buddha's time, they supported the monastics with food, and wealthy patrons of the Buddha donated land where the sangha could reside.

Retro's point about "for personal gain" is a critical one. Publishers like Wisdom, Pariyatti, etc. are non-profit. They charge for the costs of producing their books & materials, but aside from paying basic salaries and operating costs, their profits go into other projects. In other words, nobody is getting rich from those sales. This, to me, seems like the best possible arrangement given our cultural and economic system. Sometimes people make their work freely available online, like Gil Fronsdal has done with his book "The Issue at Hand." But as Tilt points out, even that requires time and effort in the form of transcribing talks, editing, etc.

In order for the Dhamma to be available, we need a working economic model for the dissemination of teaching, both in print and in support of monastic and lay teachers, in a way that is consistent with the spirit of the Buddha's teachings. To let the teachings wither or to corrupt them would be an equal misfortune.
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